I like lugs but I like them if they have a function. If they are just there on new frames for eye-candy, that makes no sense to me. Especially if that eye-candy costs $100+, it just isn't worth it.

I posted this in the BD group buy thread but basically I think you would have a winner with Tange Prestige tubing, lugs or not. Your could easily beat the closest competition, the EAI Bareknuckle and Soma Rush, by about $300. HUGE points for value conscious hipsters there.

It may also not be worth it to pay extra for the lugs because track bikes, popular as they are, have a sizable second hand market that cuts in to your profits, and at the same time (as others in this thread mentioned), lugs from Asia circa 2007 don't actually impress your target market all that much.

Yup, I agree 1000%

This could be a really great build if BD can work the same magic that they did on this frame as they did on the Kilo TT---track geometry, nice fork, good colours, non-garish logos. I'd like the fork to be threaded but I suppose that it doesn't matter, I could always get it threaded as long as it is left long enough.

Hi Mike,

I have one of your Kilo's and like it very much. As to your question, I think there is definitely a market for an upgraded version to the Kilo. I think a good tubing option will override a lug version if that had to be a decided factor. Having both options will be better but then you have a much higher cost reducing the demand.

Soma came out with the Delancey with lugs (head tube lugs polished) and Prestige tubing but it's $800 bucks and I don't think they had many takers, it just didn't have much appeal. Other's like IRO now have the option of a Prestige tubing option, to separate yourself I would recommend a different tubing but well respected like Columbus. How much much would a tig welded Zona Kilo tt Frame and lugged fork cost?

To me, I would be the first one to order a Kilo with top notch tubing like the Zona and I believe many others would follow. True Temper I think would be another very good option, I would love a True temper OX frame not sure if that fits into the price range, manufacture or warranty parameters you work with. It's not just the name brand that will sell but more the tubing model. I don't think a standard True Temper 4130 butted tubing will rasie many eye brows.

I believe a well respected tubing will sell itself. Doing lugs can be a harder sell, theres are lot to do to make lugs look good and at the same time also keep the weight down below a standard Kilo and i tihnk a lot of current Kilo owners are looking for. Maybe have a polished fork bridge & rear drop outs.

Cheers,

Mr_macgee

PS. Put me down on your list for a framee if it's not too late.

'95 Japan Masters Champ Frame with Zona tubing:

Really?

+1 to going with better tubing over lugs.

I'm a big fan of Prestige since that's what my fixed gear is on, mainly because it's really light! for a steel frame. Is Columbus Zona lighter? What about stuff by Reynolds?

My bad,

correction: it's Soma Rush offered in Presitge. IRO Mark V Pro is using Renyolds 631.

Cheers

Currently Reynolds is very expenisive when putting new orders due to (UK) Currency exchange, probably Columbus as well unless there is already a large stock of it sitting somewhere in Asia.

My guess True Temper and Tange are priced better, I would go with True Temper as they have more up to date tubing specs. Prestige is nice but it's been around for ages, I think I made my first frame out of it in 1987 and don't think it's really changed since. Prestige & Columbus were the first to offer ovalized tubsets. I would like to think there are better & more modern tubing since then for the same price.

Yes; the Zona is lighter, an 8 piece tubset for a 54cm road bike is 1300gr, Life is a touch lighter but very strong $$, both prefer tig welding but then again who's fillet brazing track frames these days and that's where the prestige shined, also with lugs.

True temper has OX Platinum & S3 which are very good tubes, can't go wrong with them if designed & spec'd out properly. The Tubes mentioned above have great chacteristics for comfort, weight & strength. Way better than all the other tubes you see being used currently on sub $1000 SS frames. These tubes are are very thin and need tight manufacturing tolerances which raises the cost.

Hope this helps

mr_macgee, yes that helps a lot! So, if I remember correctly, Prestige can be brazed because it is not heat treated, right? Is that why Prestige is not as stiff as more "up to date" tubing, which is designed to be TIGed?

If I can remember (it's been a while) the biggest difference is that the longer Prestige butting is better suited to take the long term heat that is associated with brazing. With Tig, it's over pretty quickly and dissipates quickly and doesn't travel as far down the tube. Prestige is heat treated, nivacrom is not. Tange has introduce new Prestige in '06.

I've stopped making frames many moons ago and all the info I knew is now foggy. I hope I'm giving out the right info.

I do remember Ritchey had Tange make them a signature Ritchey tubing line called "Logic". This was prestige that was very thin and made cyclo-cross frames from it called Sub-22's. Very light for the time but went soft after a year or two of hard riding and not recommended for heavy riders, a lot of them snapped.

The trick is to find the same tubing weight but also able to handle the long term pounding/rider weight/dent Resistance and nice ride quaility that hopefully the new tubes can offer.

Cheers

BikesDirect: how much would Ti or CF track frames be? would the Ti be straight or double butted?

CF would be less than Ti of course
and I think the way most rider beat up track bikes CF maybe risky

I could do a REAL nice Ti frame for $650

BUT
I am ordering now a version of Kilo TT in Platinum OX tubing
not Ti -- but really nice high-end steel frame that can be around $300 with a fork & headset
I could also do 853 for about that - but lots of builders are saying OX is really great

looking for wheels & cranks that are nice for that level frame too

mike

So you're saying $300 for a Platinum OX track frame with the Kilo TT geometry? TIG-welded, I presume? Will this be sold as a stand-alone? Threaded or threadless.

I don't know if it's worth the investment, but I think that shipping it with Sugino 75 cranks would probably be popular. I don't really believe that most riders actually NEED 75s, but I think the kind of person who wants a high-end track frameset is also the type who drops $160+ on top-shelf cranks.

Also, no matter which steel you use, put the sticker on there. Bike nerds love showing off stuff like that.

Bike nerds also want to know how much a Kilo TT with Platinum OX weighs. (I am drooling with anticipation!)

If it's something like 3.5lbs, might be worth putting a sticker with the frame weight below the tubing sticker

EDIT:Regarding the cranks, yes you could double the price of the bike simply by adding Sugino 75s, but what about mid-range options like the Sugino messenger or Sugino RD?

Actually I have no idea how either of those compares to the Truvativ Touro or FSA bottom-of-the-barrel cranksets, but I am guessing they are mid-range. (Someone confirm deny/this?)

Give us a crabon track frame for cheap.


A beer is on the way.

titanium frame or frameset please

Listen, I totally agree that Sugino 75 cranks are over-kill, but how many people buy full DA rigs from Bikes Direct who would be better suited by 105 or Ultegra? Some people want to spend their money to get the ultimate "top of the line" rig, even if they don't need it, and that's who I am imagining buying a complete TrueTemper Platinum track bike from Bikes Direct.

Also, I really doubt that 75s could DOUBLE the cost of the bike, unless the wholesale cost of them skyrocketed to $500 last night.

I'm not sure that the "wannabe lance" type of consumer that would tend to buy a Full Dura Ace BD road bike is necessarily the type of person who would buy a Full NJS BD track bike.

If 75s go for $160 retail and if that translates to about $80 wholesale, then perhaps it would be worth it. But above that, I think a mid-priced crankset would work just as well. And I mean MID-level like whatever would be the track equivalent of 105 or perhaps Ultegra level parts on a road bike. After all, the theme of this thread is "value conscious", right?

i'm still excited about that idea of the fuji track pro type alu frame, maybe with a carbon threadless fork.

except, i love my kilo and don't want the distraction of an aluminum mistress!

+1 for tig'd 853, It makes the most sense, Lugged would be nice but its just to expensive, and because there is no way i'm riding aluminum , This could spark demand for VERY light steel frames, a la Nashbar 853 frame, (great frame by the way) and good example, i would buy a track frame in the same same price range as the nashbar 853 frame in a heart beat

i agree with that statement, except i'd want a ti or CF track frame more

Any suggestions for lightweight track wheels? I don't understand the abundance of > 2000g track wheelsets when it seems like they should be lighter because of the lack of a freehub.

How much could a Track Pro/Pista Concept/Sonik type frameset cost? Aero aluminum, tight geometry, and carbon fork?

i'm not a track racer, but as i understand it the real value in lightweight wheels is felt during accelerations and climbs. it seems like most track wheels place stiffness as top priority.

i don't find formulas unreasonably heavy, and could be built with the right spokes and rim into a reasonably light rear wheel. for the money i'd think a light road wheel would be your best bet up front.

That's easy enough. For the rear there aren't as many options. There are plenty of stiff 24 spoke road wheels out there but it seems that 24-spoke fixed hubs are not as common.