I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the point of carrying a firearm. I'm responding to the "I'm not going to kill someone over my bike".

No, of course not! And I don't think anyone here is talking about doing so. Using "lethal force" (shooting someone) is only justified when your life or the life of someone else is unjustly threatened. You can't go around shooting people for trying to steal your bike. You CAN go around shooting people who are doing things that you feel are an imminent threat to your life. So, if someone points a gun at you and you believe they intend to use it, you can shoot them. If someone is beating you with a tire iron and you think they aren't going to stop until you're dead, you can shoot them.

Also, pacifism is a flawed ideology.

I don't think it's quite that simple I.F., one way or another you're going to have to justify your actions to a court of law (and possibly defend yourself against an action for civil damages).

(IANAL and TINLA)

The website linked below seems to have a fairly good layman's explanation related to the use of lethal force; if nothing else I'm impressed they've acknowledged their lack of expertise (de facto required from a legal perspective, but they were upfront about it which is admirable)...

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html

I'm not really homophobic, I guess teh term I used to describe Christians is wrong. I don't have anything against *****exuals. Just Christians. sorry for the confusion, and if I offended anyone because of their sexual preference.

Carrying a handgun goes far deeper than you seem to think it does. You cannot simply purchase the weapon and carry it. There are courses you must go through and tests you must complete. Those aren't actually enough. Responsible CHL carriers will train constantly on drawing techniques, accuracy and the law. These people would not have their weapon removed from their possession just as a police officer rarely looses possession of his. If the weapon is drawn, it's because his or her life is ultimately threatened and actively chooses to not be a victim.

I for one hope I will never have to use my firearm in a manner that will harm another human because I respect human life and the rights of others. I will not stand for someone attempting to take my basic rights.

yes, you really should have countered with a u-lock.

Homeland Security's latest non-lethal weapon: the pukelight

by Nilay Patel, posted Aug 7th 2007 at 7:31AM

Someone in Homeland Security's R&D department must have a sense of humor, because the agency is hoping to soon deploy an LED flashlight that causes uncontrollable vomiting. The light, which is being developed for DHS at Intelligent Optical Systems, first shines a high-intensity beam to stun the target and then begins flashing a series of pulses that change color and duration -- inducing "psychophysical" effects that that include nausea, vertigo, and vomiting. While the concept isn't that far-fetched -- similar symptoms have been seen in helicopter pilots affected by sunlight strobing through spinning blades -- you've got to wonder how many thousands of dollars have been spent developing a weapon that can be defeated by simply looking away.

and

The US military, for example, standardized viral agents Coxiella burnetii (Q fever) and Venezuelan equine encephalitis (VEE) [whose symptoms range from "mild flu-like illness to...inflammation of the brain, coma and death," according to the CDC -- ed.] bacterial agent Brucella suis (brucellosis), and toxin agent staphylococcal enterotoxin B (SEB), as incapacitating biological weapons...

I never said you're likely to have your gun taken from you, just that otherwise you can't really get yourself killed.
BTW if I had to bet on the outcome of an altercation between a "trained" forum member from here and a drug addict who has nothing to lose, my money wd be on the junkie. You guys may have been told how to use a weapon but that doesn't mean you'll successfully use it. The police is a whole different bunch, they're used to situations like that, work in pairs and have some intimidation factor on their side.

then read between the lines a little.

an individual that rides strapped in anticipation of encountering a criminal that might steal their bicycle and/or do bodily harm is also preparing themselves to kill a human being at the same time they are preparing for self-defense. They may not intend to kill someone, but the chances of unnecessarily killing someone are that much more higher. These people seem to be already trigger-happy and paranoid, so what happens when they finally find themselves in a robbing situation that they've been waiting for so long (and waiting passionately enough to ride with a gun on them at all times)? And what happens if that robbing situation spooks them and lethal force is not necessary whatsoever? Someone dies and someone is arrested. All in all, the worth of an IRO is not on that level.

I say, and I am experienced in riding in shady neighborhoods, is to avoid dark streets and the more dangerous streets...keep you eyes open and ride fast and be prepared to haul ass if someone approaches you. I'd rather avoid problematic situations than engage in them.

And for the record, I have been mugged before at gun point. And I'm glad I didnt have a gun to pull out otherwise I probably would have been shot at point blank range...or killed the man myself. My wallet and the 20 bucks inside were not worth such troubles. I just threw my wallet to the sidewalk and ran away. The situation ended as good as it could have.

A friend of mine, on these forums no less, at one time carried pepper spray. Seems like a way better idea in almost every regard (ie. size, weight, ease of use, little to no training involved in operation, NON-LETHAL, and still affective.).

Hey guys, I don't want to talk politics here.

** lays down my political argument without any rebuttal **

OK, great, let's agree not to talk politics now

Who seems trigger happy? Thats in your mind, bro. Nobody here has said they want to shoot people to save their IRO. I'd use any force I could to save my life. Believe it or not most people who carry with a permit have thought about all these serious and grave issues a hundred times over. I don't see law-abiding gun owners acting crazy like criminals.

What exactly did you say? It almost sounds as if you said all Christians are *****exuals, or visa versa. I can't find your post, and I'm slightly interested.

too late, it's gone... maybe he'll tell you via pm.

I wasn't referring to stereotypes. I was laughing at the fact that he considered Liberals 'narrowminded'. Is change and the want for equality narrowminded? Or is state run homophobia open minded?

Its an oxymoron, and thats why I was laughing.

Also, if you think nothing is different here than there, you haven't been here. Our furthest right party is probably still more left than the Democrats.

I wasn't referring to America as a whole, of course. I was just simply referring to how goddamn conservative the normal-average American person is. Even the people who want change still vote for a (lesser) conservative party.

Anyone that rides their bike around with a loaded handgun is at the very least paranoid or ready to shoot someone. It can be one big self-fulfilling prophecy, really.

I doubt everybody, or even a majority, of those carry guns around have thought things through as you say; guns are often like ideology - some people just have belief and fear and stick with that. It's a lifestyle.

Like I said before, I'm glad I wasnt ready to shoot someone when I was mugged at gun point. I would have killed the man or he would have shot me in the chest at point blank range - all in a single instant with zero chance of rational thought. I just gave him my 20 bucks and ran away, probably saving a life or two. There seems to be more potential trouble from carrying a loaded gun as a half-ass attempt at self-defense than there is from being smart & flight. As someone who's been in that situation before, I'm very thankful I wasnt a "tough guy" like some of you.

you gun-packers should just become cops or join the military so you can kill people for pay and shut up about how prepared you are with your stupid pistols for self-defense. riding a track bike while carrying a gun is some f-ed up version of your mad max fantasies. you cannot simultaneously suggest you revere human life and carry a gun. here in AZ you see people with guns on their sides all the time... and it is the scariest thing ever. if i ever see a rider with a gun at a group ride, alleycat or race that i'm in.. i will leave immediately. i don't want to be associated with some shooter's comic book dream.

Most people who carry, probably wouldn't try and pull their heater out when someone already has one in their chest... Guns don't solve every situational problem, and no one said that.

Then when should you pull out your gun? When you think you're there's going to be trouble? That seems quite problematic. You better be absolutely certain your life is in danger or else you're just creating a bad situation. Again, sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

well, say there is a random shooting. Like the trolley square shooting we had in Salt Lake a while back, and you are in imminent danger. Then you pull your piece. Or, say someone is coming at you with a knife. Not when the gun is already in your face.

Then when should you pull out your gun? When you think you're there's going to be trouble? That seems quite problematic. You better be absolutely certain your life is in danger or else you're just creating a bad situation. Again, sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

it is really difficult not to see some of the attempted justifications for carrying a handgun listed here as some sort of overblown juvenile fantasy (hopefully restricted to those who've yet to get a concealed handgun license).

If someone is coming at you with a knife and you're on your bike, then you should pedal fast rather then kill them. Most people are not skilled at knife fighting and really dont know what they're doing - you could easy escape the situation rather than escalate the violence and put people's lives at risk. And if you carry a loaded gun around all the time in the anticipation of the very rare random shooting, then you're risking alot (accidents, killing people/bystanders, having the firearm stolen) - how often do you find yourself in such situations much less while riding your bicycle? I bet never.

So are you on your bike 24/7? If you're like me you probably get off your bike when you go places. I never said I was going to bust out while I'm riding down the street and start shooting. The vast majority of attacks are not going to come while you are riding your bike. You're more likely to get a brick thrown at your head from the side while riding your bike than having some guy run at you and try and stab you. In that case there is nothing you can do. Carrying a concealed weapon is not all about riding a bike with it, it's about having it for protection any time it's needed. If some ******* comes at me while I'm riding down the street I'm going to pedal faster and get away, Not jump up spin around sit on my handlebars and start laying down a blanket of lead. You're taking the suggestion of carrying a pistol way out of context.

If I am taking the bicycle-plus-handguns talk out of context, then why was this posted on bikeforums?

Personally, I dont carry a pistol anymore. I simply have one at home. It is there in case of home invasion. It sits in the same place year after year and never gets used. If it never does, then fine... I'm glad.

When I carried a pistol i was aware of the awesome responsibilty I had. I read books on the law (Masaad Ayoob's) and I followed the law (no drinking, no bars, no courthouses, etc.) There were times where I was in a verbal confrontation with another person (who had no idea i was armed) while I was carrying. Once in traffic, once in front of a coffee stand. I was always aware of the danger I was in (my gun was not appropriate and could cause me to face murder charges) and both times I said "I'm gonna walk away." Back then I carried a gun because of where I lived, other considerations, and the fact that I could under local law. It also meant I could no longer fist fight or even stand up to being hassled on the street. It meant I had to walk a straight polite line.

I'm pretty much done here now. It boils down to the question on whether you believe an ordinary sober sane law-abiding citizen has the intelligence and wisdom to defend himself with a pisol or not. If you don't think people should be able to do this, I respect your opinion, but then you'll need to change state laws and our constitution. America isnt Canada. I wouldnt even think about it there. But here we have gun rights that cannot be taken away.