best argument against gun control i've heard. if only more people were like you........

I think the average citizen is an idiot and that's why I support strong gun regulation such as those on the books in my state and city as well as further regulation of gun manufacturers and dealers in order to limit the amount of guns in the populace.

Hard to argue with someone when all they read is the last sentence of your post. I'm done here.
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I agree, the paradox is funny. However as an American I get tired of people referring to "Americans" as if we all think the same thing. If the last elections have proved anything, it is that this country is split 50-50 between democrats and conservatives- we're not all the same. As I said, consider myself pretty liberal, and being constantly lumped in with half the country that I don't agree with pretty infuriating.

I also didn't say Canada and America as countries are the same- I'm definitely not that naive- I was just saying that I am sure that all Canadians do not have identical thoughts and mindsets. Similarly, Americans do not all think the same thing. I think that is pretty universal.

I think all people are stupid, therefore everyone should live according to my ideals for my safety I'm not concerned about them protecting themselves, only me being protected from them.

Even though I have every right to protect myself from them I'd prefer that the state do it for me with my money, because I trust that they're not only really good at this but they'll always have my personal best interest in mind.

Signed, the guy that lives in Chicago which has had what 12 Police beating scandals in the last 6 months?

Sexton, this is what people associate with a liberal mindset, and why they consider it close minded. I find this equally closed minded to a conservative mindset that proclaims things like, "we should go to war with a country that has nothing to do with our terrorist attacks because it may have some advanced weapons we sold them left over from the war we got them to fight on our behalf 25 years ago!"

bionnaki, your suggestion of avoiding the neighborhoods is a nice one indeed, and should be taken into consideration by any rational person. I think assuming the firearm holders aren't taking this very same precaution is making an assumption which isn't really warranted.

Needless to say, while you have the luxury of not having to protect yourself, or being concerned that someone pulling a gun on you is going to simply walk away instead of killing you dead on the spot when you only hand them 20$ maybe the rest of us aren't willing to back down and cower when our lives are threatened.

I suppose the criminals in your super tough neighborhood never leave this neighborhood in search of victims either, they simply stay in their little bubble of badness so avoiding these areas is an assured self defense tactic!

When I'm riding with my wife, and someone threatens her I'll rest assured(because I don't pack while I'm riding like I said earlier) that someone who has pulled a weapon on her is going to commit the bare minimum crime of just taking our wallets at gunpoint and feel good that they'll leave us be after the initial assault.

I often wonder how this mindset is created. I truly think some people are born and evolve into submissives, and some evolve into resistors, but I personally could not imagine being comfortable with submitting to the mindset of being a victim.

I have people that rely on me to protect them, and people I love enough to stand up in the face of a threat for. Your lack of respect for that, is suggestive of a lack of respect for your own life and those of the people you care about. Your assumption that someone who's already at the point of holding a loaded firearm in your face taking your possesions can be trusted not to go any further in the act of a crime already being commited is not the mentality of a survivor, but a victim.

I'm curious how you make out in such a rough neighborhood everday.

Unless you're on the offensive, I can't imagine a situation where carrying a handgun is the best chance of defending yourself or people you are with.

that's annoying, dude. That kind of stuff happened all the time in Oakland. I did make it through a crowd of thugs once only to see my friend get pushed over. I think my angry yelling, cursing and telling them to get the F out of the way worked. My poor friend was much more timid.

Yes because the fact that we carry guns automatically makes us synonomous with the military and police, who you disdain yet somehow think should be the only people with guns.

You cannot suggest you'd forfeit the human lives around you to a gunman without defending yourself or them, and simultaneously not carry a gun.

See how easy that is, to say stupid philosophical things which only make sense to you and noone else?

A+

Read my last post, it's full of 'em purely to illustrate my points. I didn't quite get yours though.

honestly though the only reason to carry a gun is because police have them

likeahorse, you don't seem to understand that while (at least some of) your arguments make sense to you, and to other people who share a similar viewpoint, they don't necessarily follow the kind of logical reasoning that translates for non-believers (specifically your comment about other people "resting assured" that a criminal will only take their cash and leave them alone vs. "not wanting to cower").

pazzmore's comment about "revering human life" and carry a gun is logical, your retort makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm curious to hear from the pro-gun people an example of a scenario or set of scenarios in which use of a handgun is a legitimate and justifiable solution.

There are many facilities all over the country that will charge you a great deal of money to teach you these things. Some of them are the real deal, some of them are full of crap.

You never know which is which until you attend.

Assuming someone would know how to utilize a firearm in any practical sense without a great deal of training is no good. It doesn't. However a good deal of people that enjoy shooting do attend these sorts of things all over the country all the time and learn to deal with a variety of situations that are defensive.

It's very similar to martial arts in that sense.

If you re-read my response to pazzmore and understand that you're making my point for me here but in respect to his comments I believe you'll understand what I'm implying.

ah, I see... you were trying not to make sense, a case of intentionally fallacious logic.

the only problem is that his comment did make sense.

There've already been several of them, but the clear definable legal choice is in any situation where someone may be attempting to take your life.

If someone threatens me with a weapon that can kill me, I'm allowed to use my own weapon capable of lethal force to prevent that from doing that.

That can be a variety of semantic situations we could talk about all day, or you could just look up the laws in your area locally.

Either way, assuming someone did shoot someone else defensively they'll likely have to defend that in court infront of a jury who's 50% divided on whether that was an acceptable thing to do just like this forum, which is something anyone who carries a pistol has had drilled into their head before they started carrying it.

That's assuming they're a certified carrier, of which most criminals that pull guns on people are not.

To you, but as you stated above these comments are perspectively sensible(I'm willing to dig deeper on explaining that if you want me to, but it sounds a little arduous to attempt so I'll wait until you prod me to).

:)

So we're arguing a point from perspectives neither can understand. Which is self defeating for both of us.

I have a great amount of respect for your open mindedness and perceptiveness in carrying out your arguments though tinydr, it's worth noting I'd guess if you haven't studied debate in college you definitely are atleast a very well read person.

How about VT, or any other random shooting. Some ******* running around capping people. In Salt lake we had an incident where some ******* 17 year old went into a mall with a shotgun and started blasting people. only 6 people died I think, and that was because there happened to be an off duty police officer there, who was carrying concealed. If that guy had not been there, the shooting could have continued for a lot longer and several more innocent lives would have been lost. Situations like this, where a citizen who has proper training and is armed are why people should be allowed to carry guns.

I don't know how I'm going to fit a microphone-sword of fire in my messenger bag?

Stephen Colbert's sword of fire is his voice of golden reason and truthiness.

His sheild is the powerful American Eagle of justice and strength and goodness.

His armor is... eh dude I'm to tired to do as much with this as I'd like to.

likeahorse:

Perspectively sensible... I suppose so (I like that... "perspectively sensible," that's clever). I'm not sure that makes them sensible in a larger sense, but no matter... what's that line from an old Phil Ochs tune about a student and a soldier coming across each other and arguing and walking away each secure in knowing that black is black and white is white? (the implication being that regardless of their passionate arguments, they walk away thinking they convinced the other person when in they mostly convinced themselves)...

In the end it's probably not worth delving into that much more... I have to admit I'm shirking studying for law school exams, which... isn't really the best plan.

T.S.: I have to admit, I don't know whether a private citizen would be justified in shooting the VT guy (not that I think any court would convict a person; civil damages might be another story)... from a criminal perspective one would imagine you'd only have to show your face to have someone like that put you in imminent danger of being killed (in which case one's argument in support of the use of lethal force would be strengthened). That the person who shot him (according to your comment, I have to admit I can't remember the particulars and am going with your description) was an offduty police officer changes the situation somewhat, personally (TINLA & IANAL) I wouldn't be thrilled trying to defend myself against criminal charges using that situation as support.

yeah, I can understand where you're coming from... I'm a bit burned out on this thread now.

Man... I love Stephen Colbert... even better I love truthiness; I think it's time to move beyond post-modernism (aka pomoism) and their "there is no objective truth" argument... we need something new and improved and I think truthiness is it...

Now if only "prefu" (for prefuturist) wasn't already taken...

Anyway, Earth 2.0 is all about truthiness.

Independently I have to add: I'll be a little sorry to see this discussion end, even if it was really off-topic and ultimately going nowhere fast...

Good luck with the exams you'd better get studying. I knew I was out of my element when you started busting non google federalist papers knowledge hahahaha!

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I just read through the whole thread and didn't find a single scenario, just people talking vaguely about being threatened. I guess I should have been more clear and stated that I'd like you to present your ideally most justifiable possible situation. For example, if you're being attacked with a blade, especially if you're one of these ideally highly trained people that has taken a plethora of self defense courses, diverting the blade, tripping them up or fleeing is a much better solution. If someone draws a gun on you, I'm pretty sure no matter your skill level, the instant you begin drawing yours they're going to pull the trigger without hesitation.

I'm quite familiar with firearms having grown up in Texas and now living in Georgia, learning to shoot at a very young age, and having two generations of award winning sharpshooters above me. I don't particularly enjoy shooting, and honestly the only reason I did regularly in the past was because I like to beat my brother at everything. Everyone I know personally who has had to fire a weapon outside a controlled environment (all 4 of them, family included) does not condone carrying a handgun.

I just can't justify carrying a firearm personally because I'm certain the odds of encountering a situation that could only be resolved by use of one are infinitely less than the odds of an accident occurring at some point over the long term. Maybe it's just because I'm honest with myself about my flaws. I cut myself shaving about once a month and trip on nothing weekly, I don't need to be carrying anything lethal on a regular basis.