I prefer the green Loctite on chocolate ice cream.

Hehe,....nice try! :-)

Actually, .....i decided to leave my Dura Ace HF-7216 freewheel hub alone, except that now i'm running a White Industry Trials Freewheel on it. (18T with a Dura Ace 7400 group bottom bracket and crankset with a 42T DA chainwheel) The gold rings on these hubs were just too nice to mess with,....as i'd hate to want to go back and use them with a freewheel and have trouble getting the cog off. I'd say about the nicest looking Dura Ace hub Shimano ever made!

BUT,.....yesterday i did convert an old Schwinn hub with a Mavic rim into a "suicide hub",.....mainly to see how i'd like it before i invest in a proper track wheel. I already had the wheel and wasn't using it anyway.

So 2 days ago i degreased the freewheel and Dura Ace 16T track cog threads. Applied a generous coating of the red loc-tite and cranked it down tight,.....and followed up with a DA bottom bracket lock ring with the same red loc-tite. The locking didn't have a full threading,.....but about 1/2 the threads were used before the threads ran out.

.....then i waited 30 hours before i tried it out! (packet said 24 hrs results in full curing)

Today was my first ever experience with a fixie,....and it took a short while to get the hang of it! But i managed a 10 mile round trip to the bike store to pick up a chainwheel i had ordered. Mostly flatish terrain with some mild hills,.....and i travel strickly on the sidewalk. (busy 4 lane 40 mph traffic other option i choose to avoid)

.....and i make use of both brakes. (Dura Ace BR-7700)

I must say you get a better workout with a fixed gear,.....and i don't use straps or toe clips! I got used to the nice mountain bike Shimno Deore XT PD-M730 platforms that i use on 4 bikes (4 sets!). Plenty of grip, but have to be careful with hitting bumps a lot more with the fixie so you on't get bounced off the pedals. Overall for my pace and style of riding it won't be a problem in my local. I don't take down hills fast either!

Anyway,......i do believe i will be looking for a quality track wheel on the bay,....at a reasonable price. This was a blast! :-)

cheers,
Joe T

Don't forget to buy another cog...

Can I still have your hub? I will put the red Loctite on there for you

This thread is about suicide hubs. Your hub is not a suicide hub. Especially not with front and rear brakes.

It is not even an attempted suicide hub.

Hell, it's not even a cry for attention.

Nice try.

Suicide hub, not a suicide bicycle...

With all the precautions taken (loctite, BB lock ring with loctite, brakes) I wouldn't even bother buying a new wheel until that one broke.

I'm calling BS.

Cruising down the road. Hit a big ass bump. Throw the chain. Chain gets sucked.

Now what?

With a freewheel, you keep rolling, use the brakes to slow down.

On the "alarmist and silly" set-up your cog unthreads. Before you have a chance to grab the brakes. Oops.

Now - I am not saying that the locktite setup or a BB lockring set up will unthread. I am saying that as described in the quote - a cog on a freewheel hub, will unthread.

Assuming this hypothetical bike has a decent chainline, the only time you would ever throw a chain when hitting a bump (or otherwise) is if your chain is way too loose.

This post makes no sense.

Also, what do you think happens when a cog unthreads? It just bounces around between the hub and the chainstay while you slow down with your brakes. How is this dangerous?

It's much more dangerous when the cog cannot unthread and the back wheel locks up after sucking the chain into the drive chain.

The only problem with freewheel hubs and fixed cogs is that you loose a reliable braking mechanism. Back-pressure is fine but full-skidding is unreliable.

Other than that, it's the same.

No sense? None at all?

Maybe

Huh?


Scrod - fair enough, chains should not get thrown. I am just saying that the statement "no more dangerous than using a freewheel" is not accurate.

I think that's more "suicide" than the "suicide cog".
I commend your use of both front and rear brakes, though.

No, because you created a very specific hypothetical that hinged on a failure of set-up or maintenance and not on a failure of the fixed/freewheel combination.

There is no maybe, what else do you think would happen? If you ride long enough it might start rethread but that's extremely unlikely. Once it's unthreaded itself there's pretty much no effect it can have on the bike.

Excluding mechanical brakes, there are two ways of stopping a fixed gear bike. The first is back-pressure on the pedals, the rider uses his legs to slow down the pedals and subsequently slow/stop the bike. This is often referred to as back-pressure since that's what you're doing, putting rearward (it's actually down/rear) pressure on the pedals. The second is skidding, this is where the rider stops the pedals from moving and subsequently the rear wheel, slowing/stopping is accomplished by skidding the rear tire against the road.

So it's the same, your chain gets sucked, your rear wheel will coast and you will use your brakes to slow down. Fixed or freewheel.

I gave one example, I will not give more. If your cog unthreads it does not just bounce around. It might just bounce around. Your chain might fall off of the cog and get bound up in the cog, breaking the chain, and sending the chain into the spokes. Whatever.

Fine, you think that a track cog on a freewheel hub is no more dangerous than using a freewheel. (if the bike has brakes)
And you think that you can backpressure a track cog on a freewheel.

I think a a track cog on a freewheel hub is more dangerous than using a freewheel. Even if very slightly more dangerous. Slightly.
I do not think you should put backpressure on a track cog. Unless you are six year old and daddy put it on for you.

Quote in my post is from Sheldon Brown site, it is not my own. A setup as described above seems no more dangerous than a properly set up track hub/cog/lockring.

Also, the point of my post and the quote was to say that it IS a suicide hub, whether or not it coincides with your view of what that definition is.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about and your hypotheticals only serve to illustrate your lack of understanding the most basic mechanics of a fixed gear drivetrain.

I don't just think it. My bike has a regular fixed/freewheel hub, the freewheel side has a cog mounted on it that I ride quite frequently. I backpressure all the time to moderate speed and trackstand. I don't skid at all. So far it's still on there and it's never come loose. Proper torque holds the cog in place, not a bottom bracket lockring.

Fixed that. I was not arguing with you. I was taking issue with the quote.

It is called a suicide hub because you can die riding it. A 1960's Lincoln Continental with the doors welded shut does not have suicide doors. Sheldon would probably agree.

How do you go forward if you are backpressuring all the time? And by all the time do you mean all the time, even when you are not on the bike that you ride frequently? Or all the time but only when you are on the bike that bike?

How much do you weigh? I suppose that matters. If you put high enough torque installing the cog, then maybe you cannot unthread it by backpressuring all the time.

You really think that a dropped chain cannot get up in a loose cog which is flopping around the axle. You think that cannot happen? And on that point - you think that event is the most basic mechanics of a fixed gear drivetrain? Well, damn; there is not much I can do with this.

OK guys,......no hypotheticals here,......just a REAL example of what happened in my case.

Firstly,......i mispoke,.....i did not use red loc-tite on my "suicide hub" workup,.....it was the red version of "Permatex" brand. It's a similiar product for sure,......not sure if it matters here but wanted to be clear.

Back to my point,......after reading the back of the Permatex red thread lock packaging,.....i was intreagued by the instructions on how to remove a threaded joint using their product.

It must be heated to 500 DEGREES,.......and they ain't lying! In the interest of this discussion i decided to remove my recently installed dura ace 16T cog and bottom bracket lockring! I was more than curious as to if it was even possible without popping spokes, or what i might run into.

Keep in mind i had cleaned and degreased the threads on both my freewheel designed bub and the new dura ace fixed cog,.....and also the DA bottom bracket lockring. I also shook and squeexed the Permatex red threadlock for a few minutes to make sure it was well mixed. I had done a dry run setting up my chain line beforehand,......

I actually had a little better chain-line without the lockring installed, as i could use a spacing washer on the inside to bring the cog out a few mm further,.....making it virtually perfect.

This is the 2nd reason i wanted to take it apart,......to add the inside washer and eliminate the bottom bracket lockring all together. I didn't do it that way initially as i was overly cautious with the discussion and wanted a backup.


OK,......so after 48 hours of curing and two 10 mile rides in the last 24 hours, i was going to get it all apart! Thinking it through i wanted protection on the spokes and backside of the hub where the spokes connect, as even 500 degree heat might remove any tempering.


So i pulled out about 6 paper towels and folded them in half, and used sissors to cut through all 12 layers. Then i cut a semi circle on both sides of the slit so that when placed over and behind the installed cog, i could protect the spokes and majority of the hub.


I removed the axle, ball bearings, dust covers, and ALL the grease out of every crevice, and placed my 12 layers of paper towels behing the cog and laying against the spokes. Then with the wheel laying flat against my thighs while sitting, i slowly poured about 10 ounces of water into the paper towels and allowed them to obsorb all the water they could!


I already had my propane and oxegen jeweler's torch set up in the basement, and with a wider torch tip (to throw heat over a bit more area quickly), i held the flame "parallel" to the spoke's direction and went around the lock ring first.

About 10 seconds of heat working all around,....and tried my lockring remover. NO GO,......so another 10 seconds of heat applied, and this time i resigned myself to the fact my BB lockring would be made toast. So i used a wide screwdriver and leather mallet to work the lockring off. It took a few minutes but added a bit more heat,.....and off she came. This was just the lockring, mind you,....and only about 1/2 of the treads were engaged!

I checked the paper towels, and they were holding up fine with plenty of wetness. Now to the cog,.....and i went around the cog for about 20 seconds and tried my chainwhip (the long Park blue handled one),.....it budged not a "smidge"!

.....applied some more heat for another 20 seconds. It's tough to guage a 500 degree heat level freehand,.....as the hub parts your not heating directly are always sucking heat away,......as are the wet paper towels.

.....just a bit of hope now,.....the cog moved a bit,.....not enough to see but you could feel it,.....just a whisker though and i was putting my weight into it. The tire was still on and fully inflated, btw.

Applied heat again (same 20 seconds, and grunted and groaned and this time i got the cog to move about 1/5 of a turn,....and stopped dead on me! Heat up again and another 1/5th or so of a turn resulted. I went through this same scenario about 10 times more before i could finally get a sustained unthreading of the cog.

Folks,.....properly cleaned threads, and properly applied red threadlocker on cogs AIN'T coming off on it's own!!! At NO time did the Dura Ace cog ever freely spin in the off direction,.......it was a struggle all the way. I suspect over time "IF" you ever managed to loosten one up unintentially you'd have plenty of warning with a little play developing and noticed before it ever came free.

OK,....so off it came,....took about 1/2 hour in total and a LOT of work. Not ashamed to say i even swore at it a few times! :-)

But i feel confident that when i add my spacing washer to the inside and re-apply this red Permatex threadlocker,......i won't worry about it in the least. No room for a bottom bracket lock ring this way,.... i'm not concerned.....

........ but i'll leave both brakes on just in case!

Suggest you do the same if you chose to do a similiar setup.

BTW,....the treads on my hub look perfect, and the majority of the red sealant wiped right out. A few remnants i used a thin pick,....but it was easy after the heat broke it down.

this thread, it must end.

It's just getting started.

Its called a suicide hub because you can kill yourself removing it?

.....ain't THAT the Truth!

Ok, now I would buy a new hub.

Joejewler - it looks like you did this the best way possible but for those that might not know -- aluminum really doesnt like 500 degree f temperatures. It loses its heat treat and turns into weak soft butter. Dont throw an aluminum hub into the oven at 500 f!!!

Ok ill take off my engineering hat now and return to eating popcorn and watching threads about poop eh

So after all that trouble of suicide arguments and taking a blow torch to your wheel, can you remind us how this was preferable to buying an inexpensive track wheel and using a proper lockring setup?

This thread is ​duuuuuuumb.