Hey GUY,

read this any way you want.
You're obviously just looking for a place to rant.

It doesn't fit

Ken Cox,
Keirin frame builders are a bit difficult to deal with. Their first question when you call or walk in is, "what bank you race at and what team you race for?" Unless you have a valid answer you're pretty much denied business. They are busy building for pro-riders and don't want to deal with people who want to buy a frame to put it up on the wall.
In any case I started using rental bikes they have at the bank. I mixed and matched parts to make something that fits.
For the road I am still using my old frame, which doesn't fit perfectly, but is good enough for commuting.
The guys training us are ex-pro-riders and have good connections to most builders.
I am now getting a frame done for less money and also have the wait-time cut.
Also, you don't need to be a forum guru to have a custom frame built.
They just want to see your current build and ask you what type of riding you do, or are planning to do. The geometry, size, tubes etc, he will figure out.
To my knowledge they don't like people going in there thinking they know everything.

I am not letting these sour-grapes talk me out of anything. I've been watching this for some time now. People are just waiting for beginners posting something and then jump on it and show how knowledgeable they are. This happens pretty much on every forum, bicycles, computers photography or whatever the topic may be.
Just sad to see that some of these sour-grapes are actually mods here...

Can you buy a Surly Steamroller frame set in Japan?

https://surlybikes.com/frames/steamroller_frame/

Click on "geometry" on the site, above, and find the stand over height for each size frame.

You can get a good idea of your own personal stand over height by using the inseam length of your trousers.

Although I stand 74" tall, I have a long torso and short legs, and I have an inseam of 32".

With shoes, I can easily and safely stand over a 59cm Surly Steamroller frame, which has a 32.9" stand over height.

A 59cm Bianchi Pista frame fits me the same as a Steamroller, as does my present custom Warren Rice 59cm frame.

Simply pick a Steamroller frame with a stand over height similar to the length of your inseam.

The rest of the fit gets made by selecting the right stem length and angle of rise, setting the saddle at the correct height for you, and selecting a seat post and saddle combination that puts you in the best relationship to your bottom bracket and your handlebars.

This will allow you to experiment with fit without spending too much money; while learning more about what works for you.

The Steamroller offers the options of wider tires and fenders (if you want to try them), while at the same time retaining track-like yet street-practical handling.

If my custom-framed bike got stolen tomorrow, I'd start over with a Surly Steamroller.

If you can get a Steamroller in Japan without spending too much money, I would recommend that choice.

I also like the Leader 722TS and the Viking frames:

https://leaderbikeusa.com/?page_id=41

https://vikingcycles.com/store.php

Save money on the frame and spend it on wheels, crankset, and the rest of the components, instead.

I think you'd really like a Surly, Leader or Viking frame much more than a Keirin track frame.

At least for now.

A few years from now, when you know more about what you like, you can get a custom Keirin frame and move all your components to the new frame.

Thanks for all the advice!
And yes, Surely is available in Japan. for anything over 54cm you'll probably need to order it via the store, at which point it makes more sense to import it.

This thread confuses me. How'd we go from custom to Surly? I don't know the financial situation of the OP, but I'm guessing that if he's thinking of going custom he's also got enough money to complete the build with nice parts (or already has them).

I would say just get whatever you want. It's your money, and you'll be the one riding it. Plus, custom frame builders should take care of all your geometry needs for whatever type of riding you're in to or want... if they don't, then you should probably take your money elsewhere because they either don't know what they're doing or they don't care about getting you a true custom to fit your needs.

I don't own a car and my company pays for the commuter pass which I rarely use.
so yes, I have a few extra
bucks for my bicycle. Also Used NJS parts are available for cheap in japan. every time there's a
crash you can get even the undamaged parts for almost nothing.

It went from custom to Surly because the OP and respondents raised questions about what the OP really wanted, and what he could really expect from a custom Keirin builder.

Not having lived in Japan, myself, I don't know how much, in terms of the Japanese economy, a custom Keirin frame costs, but I assume it doesn't come cheap.

The Surly/Leader/Viking frame could put the OP into a learning and riding situation where he could determine HIS fit and components, and then have everything ready in his head when he finally went to a custom builder.

I have a custom frame.

It took me four years of study and thought to design it.

In the end, it has geometry remarkably similar to my 2005 Bianchi Pista, but it took me those years of study to understand how that specific geometry and certain specific components would work for ME.

I suspect that in the end, the OP will pick a standard geometry Keirin frame that gives him adequate stand over height, and he'll refine the fit with proper components.

He could do that now by just choosing a standard Keirin frame size based on the inseam of his trousers.

However, if that seems like too much of a risk, he could get a Surly/Leader/Viking frame and ride while he learns what he wants for himself.

In the meantime, www.businesscycles.com soemtimes has a number of standard/stock Keirin frames, some of them drilled for a brake:

https://www.businesscycles.com/ganwell.htm

https://www.businesscycles.com/nagasawa.htm

For myself, I'd buy a 59cm Ganwell Pro frame if I wanted a Keirin track frame; but, based on my experience riding this type of frame, I know I'd need a 35mm setback seatpost.

If I had purchased this frame five years ago, for the stand over height, I would have perceived the top tube as too short and I would have initially tried to get more cockpit space with a longer stem.

Unhappily, a longer stem would have put too much weight on the front wheel for riding on the street (different than riding on the track), and the resulting handling and body position would have convinced me I had bought the wrong sized frame and that I needed a custom geometry frame.

In reality, though, I don't need a custom geometry frame.

A stock geometry frame will work great for me, if I choose the correct components for my body type and riding style.

For me, if I want an agile street bike, I know to choose a frame one size smaller than most bike shops would recommend, and that a setback seat post will properly position me over the bike in relation to the front and rear wheels and the bottom bracket.

I have short legs, a long body, and I ride only on the street; and so the above works for ME.

Thats a really really common misnomer. There is no reason that a person that can fit a bike, and understand the relation between geometry and riding style automatically has the mitering, welding, and finishing skills required to build a frame. They are two seperate areas of expertise. Its like saying the worlds best butcher is also a michelin rated chef. They are in the same field, but totally different skill sets.

Yea... I didn't say that. Getting a custom bike means you're getting a bike made specifically for you and your needs. A good custom builder should know enough about geometry to figure out how to cook up a frame that fits the customer's needs. Someone who's good at bike fitting might not necessarily be good at or know how to build a frame, but a good custom builder should know a good amount about frame geometry.

The keyword is "good", which also happens to be very objective.

I don't know anything about geometry, and I'm not picky enough to go out and commission a custom job for the sake of geometry. All I know is that I have long legs and a short torso with normal arms.

Good point.

I went to a certified bike fitter who has credentials and licenses as an Orthotist and Prosthetitists (shoe orthotics and artificial limbs).

He has autographed pictures on his walls from the US Ski Team and several of the world's most elite bicyclists.

After the bike fitter fit me to an existing bike and made recommendations for a new frame, I took that information and those numbers to a custom frame builder.

I find it interesting that different frame builders have different ideas about the how and why of bicycle fit.

If you want to know how to fit a bike to you, and if you have the money, go to a professional fitter who does not make or sell bicycles.

Otherwise, start out with an inexpensive stock frame and put your money into experimenting with stems, seat posts and saddles.

I predict that if you ride a track-style frame on the street (and if you really care about how the bike handles), you'll want a set back seat post, a shorter stem, and handlebars adjusted higher than on the track or for time trials (road racing height).

If you move back on a track geometry bike, it will lighten up the front wheel (for agility and potholes) and improve your acceleration and braking.

I think it'd be interesting to get professionally fit for a bike. It'll at least show me how off my fit is!

just to put things into perspective.
Cinelly Gazzetta costs 80,000yen in any bike shop here.
Panasonic custom Keirin frame costs 90,000.
Gan Well starts at 130,000.
And as far as I know, there are no mass produced keirin frames. They are all custom

I'd pay that extra $122 and some change for a Panasonic frame over a massed produced Cinelli. I've never been a fan of the Gazzetta anyways.

Also, the small keirin frame builders know very well about bicycle fitting and welding. Many of them used to be pro-riders themselves.

I wouldn't buy the Gazzetta at that price in the first place. Crazy mark up on that frame here in Japan.
Just for reference:
Surely Steamroller is in the high 70,000 here in Tokyo.
this is my local bike shop's website.
https://bluelug.com/products/list.php...rch&name=SURLY

According to the website posted by vladuz976, in US dollars, a Steamroller frame set in Japan costs $854.

Here, in America, I can get a Steamroller Complete (a ready to ride bike) for $720.

The Panasonic would cost $1098 and the Ganwell $1598, and you would still need to buy wheels, tires, tubes, stem, handlebars, crank set, cog, pedals, saddle, chain, brake and small hardware.

This would double the price of the Ganwell.

Worth it to me.

So, can vladuz976 get a Ganwell frame or not?

I've lost track of the subject of discussion, now.

Yes, I can get a gan well frame. They builder has about one month wait time. I have most of the parts I need. Like I said, parts are easy to get used here.
And I don't drive a car like most Tokyo residents, so I have a few extra bucks to spare for my bicycle.

Have you considered a Yamaguchi? I to am considering a custom frame.

While Yamaguchi is a Japanases name, belonging to a custom builder who was born in Japan, he now lives and works in Colorado. So not really what vladuz976 is really looking for.

heard of Yamaguchi frames, but didn't know anything about him. I guess if he's in Colorado, then it's not really an option.

While I am sure you may being paying extra for the "coolness" factor, have you thought about a Kinfolk frame? You mentioned in your original post that the builders you called may have misunderstood your Japanese or vice-a-versa. From personal experience I would strongly recommend bringing someone (Japanese or foreign) that speaks both Japanese and English perfectly so there are now mix-ups and you do not get upset. Finally, while you may not know all the tubing/geometry stuff, are their things that you wish could be improved/changed on the current frames you ride? For example, despite being recommended by a local shop to change the angle/length on my stem, I went against them due to the fact that I personally like the feeling of being stretched out along the bicycle.

Kinkfolk is nice, too. But pricewise just about the same as Ganwell or most other Keirin frames.
You are right, I should bring someone who can speak perfect Japanese with me.
My current frame is too short for me. The top tube needs to be much longer.

how much did your cinelli cost all told?

my friend has a gazette, I'm not impressed and I'm disappointed in him for making that choice. There's a lot better bang for your buck. Unless it was a stupid deal that brought a Cinelli down to real world prices I wouldn't touch one. My preference would be for something custom, out of my preferred materiel and FAT AERO Tubing.