I went through the same experience when I started building my own wheels a few years ago. I wanted butted spokes, but my LBS gave me a whole "straight gauge spokes are stronger and the weight savings are negligible" argument. Turns out he was wrong on both accounts, and that he just didn't stock DB spokes. I can't figure out the why behind this, except that maybe the shop did this to keep their wheel build costs lower than other shops in town (high % of customers can't tell the difference).

You could find a copy of my wheelbuilding bible, or just trust the words of Sheldon:

"Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic, allowing them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily-stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke holes." Link

Scrod can probably give more insight on this one. I will say that the additional cost of doing a DB spoke build vs. straight gauge stacks up quickly depending on your spoke count.

Yeah, the guy doesn't know what he's talking about and probably just doesn't have doubt;e-butted spokes on hand.

The 32h TB14s I built for my own bike are laced to Phil low flange hubs using Sapim Race spokes and they're the most comfortable wheels I've ever ridden on the crappy San Diego streets. I've also never had to true them and have been riding on them for a few years now.

Personally I wouldn't go with Lasers because the butted section is really thin and they will probably end up making those wheels too springy. A springy wheel will be stronger, hold its shape and stay true a little better but too springy will feel like you're fighting your bike. If Sapim is your jam, stick with Race spokes, which are 2.0/1.8/2.0mm.

Also: when you calculate your spoke lengths for a wheel built using TB14 rims, round up and add 2mm. You'll thank me.

Awesome, thanks Scrod.

So should I probably be looking at 14/15 gauge spokes exclusively? I can get a good deal on Hoshi 15/16, but it sounds like you think those might be too springy, if the gauge itself is a reliable indicator.

EDIT: Just found out I can get 14/15 for the same deal.

Just to add my .02¢ like it matters

I ride butted spokes on my mountain bike, which travels America hucking off jumps and doing various kinds of lunacy which quite literally puts my life in my own hands on almost every ride.

I ride butted spokes on my commuter bike which not only weighs close to 50lbs, but is often loaded with another 40lbs of groceries, me (160lbs) all the while wearing a messenger backpack loaded with another 30lbs of laundry or god knows what.

I ridebutted spokes (lasers) on a track bike thats seen about 5k miles on nyc streets and some gravel paths. If you've been to nyc thats all the information you need to know.

None of these wheels have broken any spokes and only only a single spoke has needed 1/8th of a turn in all the thousands of miles of these wheels history

In fact: the only spokes i ever have broken, have been straight gauge SS spokes.

I think you'll be ok

What spoke calculator do you generally use? I am about to rebuild some DA 7400 road hubs to some TB14s and I have generally used QBP and at least one other (usually Sapim) to check. We have a PW spoke cutter so it isn't a huge deal if I go longer (and I might just go long and buy in bulk and cut them down myself) but I am curious why add 2mm?

The only spoke calc I use is this one.

I usually add 2mm because I've found some of the eyelets on TB14 rims to be inconsistent from batch to batch, which affects the ERD. It's better to have a couple of mm extra than not enough.

I think that is one of 4 or 5 I used when choosing spokes for my touring bike. I wanted to make sure I was correct since it was the first time I had done handbuilt wheels for myself.

2mm is not much so I might as well remember that for when I buy my spokes or cut my spokes.

Any views on Phil Wood Spokes?

Gracias!

Scrod my man, my dude, my amigo! I've got what I consider to an idea downright wreckless, perhaps absurb! I've got a 650B SS wheelset wrapped in some 38mm rubber. Think I squeeze those babies in my Big Block?

Why you ask? No reason.

You have the bike and the wheels, so try it. The worst thing that will happen is they won't fit.

Dear Scrod,

I got a spammy email from a company called LoCal bikes.

They're apparently based in San Diego and I have a feeling that a previously Leading* bicycle company in the same area sold out/ abused their email subscriber list.
Their address is the same as Coghouse's address, who we know is affiliated with a certain somebody.



https://localbikes.com/

Your thoughts?

Yeah, it's Sal from Leader's lame attempt at staying in the bike industry. Good luck to that ****ing idiot.

Scrod,

What do you use for grease on seat posts and saddle bolts? Will any grease work? Blue thread locker on the saddle bolt?

I use Phil Wood grease at the shop but anything will work.

Threadlocker is good on bolts that have a tendency to slip and loosen up but not necessary on everything.

Phil Wood Grease is for ball and roller bearings, it says so on the packaging and you are violating the strict rules of cycling. Expect the UCI to be at your shop promptly at 7:04 AM tomorrow : P

Phil grease on everything (but your hands they have hand cleaner for that)

Yo Scrod. I know you've been a big supporter of Aventon, and after seeing their latest unveiling of the new Cordoba, I'm really excited for what the new Mataro might look like. I'm seriously ready to drop my Leader and pick one up when they come out, what do you think of their latest offering? Are they still moving in what you think is a good direction?

I knew Aventon had been working on some cool new stuff but that new Cordoba LTD even surprised me. I'm stoked to see what they come out with next.

They sell a complete bike with a carbon fork for $247?

That's good to hear. I like the Cordoba, but I like the more aero design frames better, just more my thing. I'm betting that if they did some big re-designs on the Mataro line, they're going to be pretty rad.

I was pretty sure it couldn't go down lower since when I first put it in a few years ago it went down until it clunked against the bottom - or whatever was stopping it. Been busy but I finally got around to seeing if it could go further down and I can confirm it cannot.
Could this be because the bike was originally designed to have stem mounted shifters, so they made it so the stem stuck out more so there was a place to mount the shifters?

Not scrod, but your stem looks like it's sticking a crazy far way out of your steerer/headset. I'm not sure I've seen any that tall other than a technomic. Just about anything will be less tall than that. The stem height is the number you want smaller, not the length, as far as I can tell. Most stems post length (that's the 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 130 number), but fewer post their height. It's odd that you'd be bottoming out, but then I've never messed with such a short bike.

i have the same problem (but not the same amount) on my trek, i never really dug around in there to see what it was but one stem slams down and the other doesn't go as far.
as a result fit has never been 100% but its good enough. i dont intend on owning any more quill/threaded bikes in the future so im resigned to it just being whatever

It's not just barely in, though. There's a good few inches that its down in there. without unhooked the brake cables, i can pull it out to just about where the minimum insertion line is - can't pull it out enough to see the bolt/wedge.

If you look at my original post you quoted, and follow the link to the Amazon page where I ordered it from, you'll see the stem reach length is 60, and the height is 180 (apparently). I'm guessing it's all in mm, and the other one available on that particular page is 150 height, but if that's just a difference of 30mm - 3 cm, that's obviously not going to do much.

When i get home I'll try to measure how much is sticking out at it's current slammed down as far as it will go position.

The quill is hitting the internal butting at the bottom of the steerer!!

Just cut off the desired amount with a hack saw and file it smooth. It's not complicated. You want the stem 3 inches lower? Cut off 3 inches. Not rocket science guys.

Or you could drop $10-15 on a threaded to threadless converter and then play around with a bunch of different threaded stems with different negative angles and lengths to see what works best for you. Maybe not the most attractive (to my eyes) option, but the most versatile. I don't trust my ability to hacksaw evenly at an angle and keep it straight and at the right angle, but that's just me.

This.

I've cut quill stems without much fuss. In fact, I just cut an inch off a Nitto UI-12 for a customer this afternoon. Easy peasy.