It's been about three years since I've used a tensionometer but I just checked a few of the Archetype/Gran Compe SF wheelsets I build and they're all at about 15 on the Park, which translates to around 120kgf.

Also, read this.

Thanks again Mr. Zilla. You're a credit to your species.
I took them up to about 11-13 on the Park gauge, so that's probably safe, yeah? Will take the rear wheels up to 15; or would you recommend more, since they're 2X?

We'll be at Booth 27 at the Veloswap this Sunday. You coming?

The rims and hubs being used are a contributing factor to how much spoke tension you can use so if the spokes on the radial front wheel feel tight enough, they probably are. You could probably rock it up to 15 on the rear without any problems.

I may make an appearance on Sunday if I'm not holed up in the shop building wheels. My queue is ****ing bananas right now.

How long does it take you to build a set of wheels ? It takes me about an hour, but I'm an amateur and don't do things in the most efficient manner.

it takes me like 3 hrs to build wheels lol, haven't had any splode yet tho!

It depends on a lot of things - my mood, which Black Sabbath record I'm listening to, what I ate for lunch, etc.

I once laced, tensioned & trued a rear wheel for a friend in the time it took him to walk to the liquor store two blocks away from the shop, buy beer and walk back but that's not a typical occurrence. I was just showing off.

Who was the beer for? You or him?

Both.

Do you find 710SL chains are a ***** to get pins out of? I took a link off mine before installing it and I swear I've never had to work that hard to do it before.

Sometimes if your chain tool isn't lined up 100% correctly with the pin, it can be a real hassle.

Hey Scrod,

I'm curious for your opinion about how tubing/lug quality affects the final quality of the bike and ride.

I want to build up a keirin-style frame for road/commuting use (~100 miles/week), and I have the following materials options from a custom builder:

$700 – Tange tubing + standard lugs
$1300 – Tange tubing + Nagasawa lugs
$1500 – Columbus tubing + Nagasawa lugs

I’m pretty sure the first option is Tange Chromo, but I’m not sure about the grades on the other two options; still waiting for the full spec sheet.

My personal guideline: I’m more than happy to pay a premium for a genuinely higher quality bike/ride, but I don’t want to pay more just for street cred or dropping a few grams or shaving a few milliseconds off a race time.

So, finally, my question: Assuming the $700 option is Tange Chromo, and given that the frame builder is the same and that I’ll build the bike up with the same components in all cases, do you think it would noticeably improve the quality of the bike/ride to upgrade the tubing/lugs? What are the relevant considerations here? I’m 5’10"/175lbs for reference.

Thanks man! I love your work in this forum.

Thanks for the compliment but your frame builder could probably tell you a lot more than I can, especially considering you're not specifying which type of Tange or Columbus tubing you're choosing from. Both Tange and Columbus have a pretty wide range of options available.

Can I tell a difference between a frame made of nice steel and one made of gas pipe? Of course, but I don't really nerd out about it.

One comment I'd like to make is that the choice of lugs will have zero impact on the quality of ride. Far more important is the craftsmanship of the framebuilder.

But he also wants to upsell me, and I appreciate your no-bull**** approach

I guess the clearer way to ask my question is: Assuming the basic option is Tange Chromo (so, already good-quality steel), would there be any reason for a non-racer to upgrade aside from vanity? It sounds like maybe you think the answer is no.

A shop employee (I haven't had a chance to meet the builder directly yet) already tried to convince me that the choice of lugs would have a big impact on ride quality. That didn't ring true to me, but I'm still pretty new to all this, so thanks for your input!

I suggest you repost in the Framebuilders sub-forum. You should get more specific professional opinions there. It sounds to me like your shop is feeding you some bs.

Thanks, I'll give that a try too. I hadn't noticed the Framebuilders sub-forum before.

not scrod, but this relevant and worth reading:

https://www.habcycles.com/m7.html

A name is not an indication of quality, as Tange doesn't only make one type of steel tubing.

You need to deal directly with the builder himself. And his biggest concern should be that the bike fits you properly and rides the way you want it to. Geometry plays a HUGE role in this and he should be asking you all kinds of questions regarding your riding habits, terrain, how you want the bike to steer, take bumps, etc. If that aint happening, IMO look for another builder.

Something a good builder (with a conscious) would ask immediately is why do you want a "keirin-style frame for road/commuting use." Your answer may satisfy him and he might build it for you, but it's something that would strike him as odd and worth discussing before proceeding.

Not Scrod. Apologies.

(Not Scrod, either. But if I may) ^ What he said. I just finished going through this whole process and I'm kind of shocked that you haven't been talking to the builder directly.

Heh, based on my initial research I thought "Tange Chromo" referred to a specific grade of their chromoly tubing. I think the problem was that some Korean resources (where I'm building this) refer to it as something like "tange chromo chromoly". Anyway, now I see that Chromo is not actually one of their chromoly grades, so my post was even less informative on tubing type than I thought!

The reason I came here before meeting the builder is that cultural and language differences can make this kind of consultation challenging at best and I wanted to go into the meeting with a more informed opinion. I'm starting to get that, as a growing consensus suggests that 1) lug quality per se doesn't matter and 2) most riders won't notice the difference when upgrading from good basic tubing.

I don't want to highjack this thread, but if others still want to comment I'd love to hear from you at the Framebuilders post I started on TejanoTrackie's advice.

Thanks y'all!

yo scrod, sup man what are your thoughts about hi tensile steel frames for daily commute in heavy traffic situations where theres a lot of uneven pavement?

I'm sure you've gotten asked this before, but what's a nice looking sub-$50 JIS headset? I have a beautiful Dura Ace 7400 ISO headset I'd been hanging onto for years that I was going to put on a frame, only to find out it was a JIS frame. In the past I've also used Campagnolo Record (costs a bit more than what I've listed here) and Tange Levin JIS, but neither of those seem to come in JIS. I'd like something nice and classic looking as it's an older, lugged frame. I'm not sure about black or silver as the frame has been powdercoated a metalic copper and I have both silver and black parts that will be going on it - too many different metallic colors, I know, but its what I have).

Tange Levin CDS is available in chrome with either a 26.4 or 27.0 crown race.

Bombs away![/QUOTE]

Scrod,

My rear axle nuts slip, even when I use a pedal wrench to tighten them. What to do?