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front-end geometry

Old 09-21-13 | 10:40 AM
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front-end geometry

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Last edited by bfuser19387; 05-16-25 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 09-21-13 | 02:06 PM
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Bikes: 1980's Spectrum 10 sp Campagnolo Centaur, 1990 Eddy Merckx 10 sp Campagnolo Centaur, Bushnell Tandem, Co-Motion Speedster Tandem

Some of the custom builders could make a fork in other rakes. The Rodriguez website lists production forks at $225 and custom at $675. I'd think Bilenky Cycle Works would too though they don't have a price listed on the website. You may want to ride some more and see if you work into it. Also make sure that your Stoker is aware that movement causes handling issues up front. I've see post on the forum where others have posted the different brands riding characteristics.
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Old 09-22-13 | 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by engineerbob
About a month ago, we bought a used Burley Duet. After I changed its gearing, it is working out pretty well. However, at low speeds, I have noticed that it is very sensitive to any movement in the handlebars. At higher speeds it is extremely stable, much more so than my Trek road bike. I assume that this is a function of the amount of trail in the front-end geometry.

If I were to change the fork to one with less trail, I would expect less h/s stability, but less sensitive steering when climbing at very low speeds. Like many things, there is a trade-off.

Is my analysis correct? How would I go about finding a fork that would reduce my tendency to weave all over the road at low speeds?

Thanks.

Bob
A couple of quibbles, first, forks do not have trail. Forks have rake. The combination of head tube angle and fork rake produces trail. The best way to change trail is to change both the head tube angle and the fork rake together. More fork rake with the same head tube angle will result in 'wheel flop', not a good thing. And no, I don't think your analysis is quite correct. Less trail means less stability period. Less at low speed, less at high speed. More trail means more stability at low speed and even more at high speed. Sounds like a good thing until you want to dodge a moose at speed. I should hope your tandem feels more stable than a half bike at speed. The reason it feels so unstable at low speed is precisely the reason it feels planted at high speed. Mass. At very low speed the mass is working against you. At high speed it is working with you. I may not be quite right about this but I suspect that tandems actually need less trail than a given half bike, because that long wheelbase and all that mass could make for a vehicle that was too stable for its own good at reasonable road speeds. You just have to accept the bike designers compromise between reasonable agility at speed vs some amount of instability at very low speeds. Take it as a challenge. I can practically track stand either of our tandems and one of them is has about as much low speed stability as a helicopter.

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Old 09-22-13 | 06:59 AM
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Bikes: Custom 650B tandem by Bob Brown, 650B tandem converted from Santana Arriva, Santana Noventa, Boulder Bicycle 700C, Gunnar Sport

Originally Posted by engineerbob
About a month ago, we bought a used Burley Duet. After I changed its gearing, it is working out pretty well. However, at low speeds, I have noticed that it is very sensitive to any movement in the handlebars. At higher speeds it is extremely stable, much more so than my Trek road bike. I assume that this is a function of the amount of trail in the front-end geometry.

If I were to change the fork to one with less trail, I would expect less h/s stability, but less sensitive steering when climbing at very low speeds. Like many things, there is a trade-off.

Is my analysis correct? How would I go about finding a fork that would reduce my tendency to weave all over the road at low speeds?

Thanks.

Bob
I did exactly what you are thinking about and it worked out well. Bilenky uses low trail geometry on its standard tandems. There standard unicrown forks for their small sized tandems has 60mm rake and he made me one painted in black for a reasonable price. The axle to crown height needs to be considered because a change there will change the HT angle. Most all steel tandem forks are about the same height so that was not a problem for me with the Comotion or with a Santana. Now I can ride with one finger tip on the bars climbing at 10 mph. Also it allows for a front bag if you want to go that route.

I do not know about the Burly but most major makers use a 73 degree head tube angle. When I bought the fork I owned a Comotion speedster and the substituted fork worked well. Trail went to the low forties. Very stable at high speed and much less flop at very low speed. The only downside is that it takes very little effort to turn the bars and so a light touch is needed. This is with 28-30mm tires. The bike tracks very straight and needs little steering correction at low speed but id you are in the habit of correcting then you end up moving the bars when it is not needed and then you have to move them back. It may take a little getting used to. If you have a long stem and wide bars this will be less of an issue.

Another benefit for me about the lower trail is that it does not feel locked in when cornering at high speeds. Some like the "cornering on rails" feeling of high trial bikes but the low trail really does allow for changing your line in mid corner. That ability is great when faced with an unexpected pot hole mid corner. On the other hand not being locked in means you have to steer actively thru the corner rather than set the bike up entering the corner and just let it roll through. It is a different mind set but once I became used to it I find I can take corners faster and tighter than I could on higher trail bikes.


Overall I loved it and when I sold my Speedster I kept the 60mm fork and moved it over to a Santana. I have now converted the Santana to 650B and the wider tires also reduce the sensitivity at low speeds. If you ride with a light touch on the bars then it should be fine. The nice thing about the fork change is that if you do not like it then you can easily change the fork back.

Last edited by waynesulak; 09-22-13 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 09-22-13 | 07:30 AM
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How long is your stem? I once mounted a very short stem to move the bar closer but found it made the steering very twitchy.
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Old 09-22-13 | 07:53 AM
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Bikes: Custom 650B tandem by Bob Brown, 650B tandem converted from Santana Arriva, Santana Noventa, Boulder Bicycle 700C, Gunnar Sport

Stem length is a factor in feel. Mine is only 80mm and I use 42cm bars. Both a longer stem and wider bars increase the radius of the circle and therefore the length of arc that your hands move for the same degree of steering.

I think bike fit is very important so my stem length is determined by that. The quick steering is not a big problem for me but I mention it so that readers can have the benefit of what I found.

Last edited by waynesulak; 09-22-13 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 09-22-13 | 09:23 AM
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Bikes: Custom 650B tandem by Bob Brown, 650B tandem converted from Santana Arriva, Santana Noventa, Boulder Bicycle 700C, Gunnar Sport

I don't believe that tandems without a stoker can not be expected to handle like a single. Especially if you have a seatbag behind the stoker or a rear rack. You are correct that you use wheel flop when pushing a bike by the seat but once again the much longer wheel base and added weight make it different than a single bike.

Do you know the rake of the current fork? If not try to measure it.

Below mentions a 42mm rake which would make it long trail with the stated 73 degree head tube.

https://www.epinions.com/bike-Bicycle...mba__1998?sb=1
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Old 09-22-13 | 07:12 PM
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Try looking down the road a bit further.
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Old 09-24-13 | 10:22 AM
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Bikes: Mine: Paul Taylor Custom 66cm, Rivendell custom 68cm, '75 Eisentraut Touring 69cm, 68cm track frame of indeterminate origin, '92 Cannondale M500. Ours: '93 Burley Duet tandem XL. Hers: L Mercier Sora thingy

Originally Posted by waynesulak
I don't believe that tandems without a stoker can not be expected to handle like a single
I rode my Burley to the shop to get new cables without a stoker in the back, about 5 miles each way. It really didn't handle too badly, but the Burley is quite heavy and when you're going up steep hills it feels like someone dropped a big dumbbell in the saddlebag!
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Old 09-24-13 | 10:28 AM
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Bikes: Custom 650B tandem by Bob Brown, 650B tandem converted from Santana Arriva, Santana Noventa, Boulder Bicycle 700C, Gunnar Sport

I believe that Burly used thick walled tubing so with a lot of tubing used on a tandem it is heavy. Not all steel tandems are built with that tubing and as a result they ride much differently. I have a steel tandem that has tube walls only 57% as thick as what I think the that Burly has. That is almost a 57% lighter frame in the same size. The wall thickness also effects the feel of the frame.

Still the Burly is a workhorse and you should not have to worry about dents in the top tube.

Last edited by waynesulak; 09-24-13 at 10:31 AM.
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