bikemig 

Yes, lol. I'm assuming that there's enough in the steerer to prevent it from breaking! But that's true for a shorty stem as well.

volvostephen

I just did a short ride - 670 km over 5 days. Most of the terrain was flat but at points there were some steep hills. I was running 1 x 8 for the tour. Front was 38 and rear was 11-32. In the 38-32 combination, my speed was about 6 KMPH. Any slower with the load I had, i would have fallen over due to lack of speed. I can't see needing much lower of a gear range - I mean how slow can you ride and still keep upright. At the end of the ride I was just standing for most hills and didn't bother shifting down at all. Truth be told, I had a 48, 38, 28 triple but I was curious if I could complete the tour with just the 38 and I did no problem. I used to ride single speed and maybe this changes your perspective too. A lot of people will tour on single speed. Sometimes you just need more umph to get up a hill - not necessarily a lower gear.

LesterOfPuppets

That's less than 40 rpm on 700x32. Ooof. I couldn't take that kinda grind. If you're riding on sixers I guess your cadence might just break 40 rpm, still harsh, though.

But yeah, like ya said, some people are grinders, some are spinners.

volvostephen

For climbing I don't think 40 is so bad. Even if I dropped to the 28 tooth front, that would only be 60 RPM. Not a huge difference. For typical riding, I would mostly ride in the 80 RPM range which is fine for flats - I have lots of range with 11-32 in the back. Then if I drop to 40 on a hill - not a big deal. I just tend to think that people get too hung up on things. Just get out and ride.

Actually - at the end of the trip, my cadence did drop a lot - I haven't done that much riding on back to back days before and all that higher cadence causes a lot more things to move around and rub and what not - I found a lower cadence with a smooth sweep worked a lot better for me overall. When I ride tandem with my son - he hates high cadence too so that is also an influence.

As for knees - I am 45 and have has sore'ish knees since being a teenager. I can't take consecutive jump shots in basketball without shooting pain in my knees. That being said - my knees feel better than ever after this ride. I usually find that if something is sore - then it hasn't been done enough so ride more and it will fix. Not really a proper rule of thumb - but it works for me.

djb

re knees, ya it seems that there really is a diff between people, for this skinny guy, higher cadence is whats more comfortable for me, and really saves my knees.
I think in this sort of context, ie someone who hasnt toured before, being warned about too high gearing for a given load/terrain thing is always good, cuz overloading and undergeared bikes are so common with beginners. I kinda figure that folks who can handle slow cadences and grind along without issues are more uncommon, and that for the majority of folks, spinning more is easier on the knees.

and you know, all the often talk against low gearing, the poo-pooing of it partly from saying that you cant go fast enough downhills, I would counter that with my experience that high speeds on downhills comes from your riding abilities and experience going fast. My fastest downhill runs, loaded or unloaded, have pretty much all been waaaay past my gearing limit, and past 80kph or 50mph you tend to be freewheeling and it comes down to judgement of the conditions (unless you are on a racing bike with more than 50-11, 52-11 or whatever) And anyway, at those speeds, an aero tuck is way more important than still pedalling forcefully.

escii_35

I tell folks 1 to 1 at a minimum.

What do I ride as a middle aged person with 100,000miles in and two knee manglements?

48-36-24 with a 14-28 freewheel on my commuter and two bag pavement touring unit.
44-32-22 with a stupid 8 speed 11-34 mega for my on/off road four bag ride. Next time I'll pony up and wait for a 12-32 to be delivered.
53-39 with a 13-25 on my sexy chrome Italian job.

I find a middle 32T annoying for anything but loaded or off road riding. Mega gearing takes away much of the inner rings utility.

DonValley

Thanks for the advice and I was a bit concerned that the bike was a little small. The Frame seems very stretched out, so I had to go to a very short stem. I am 5 foot 10 last timeI checked. 180 pounds. I have pretty long legs for my height. I think if I had found the next size up, it would be ideal.As it is, the bike is now quite comfy and normal feeling. My previous frame was slightly taller but a little less stretched out.

DonValley

So much useful info….from so many . Thanks. I was a Montrealer till the late 70's and my Mum and Brother still live there….then wandered down the 401 for school. Was thinking about going around lac St Jean. Probably not too hilly near the lake. I have to do more research on that. I checked the gearing calculator (Not sure if I inputed my crank length properly and used the default of 170) It came to 22.4 with the 34 tooth cassette. I am close to 57 and quite fit, but remember doing the hills from Banff to Jasper when I was younger and it almost killed me!

DonValley

It is a 60 mm Nitto Technomic . It is set about 1 half inch below the max line. I haven't settled on my final tweaking of these parts.

djb

my wife and I biked around Lac St Jean a few years ago in august. It was on one of those Velo Quebec supported week long tours (you camp in your own tent but they transport the luggage sort of trip, called Le Grand Tour) so I only had one pannier with minimum stuff in it. As you say, I think you are right and its not really hilly. It can be pretty hilly on the road going from Chicoutimi back towards the St Lawrence, pretty damn hilly in fact, along the Saguenay river (theres a part of it thats a fjord remember, so hilly hilly) but around the lake, I'm pretty certain it was fine.

Velo Quebec will have lots of info about the biking route around the lake, you may already have found info on it. Contact me if you need more, we have some Quebec biking route books kicking around the house, and they have detailed info on the route, although Im sure Velo quebec website would have some links to it, or you can call velo quebec directly and ask.

dont forget, Lac St Jean is a good bit colder earlier than Montreal, so see how the weather is doing vis a vis clothing choices. It is a nice area and I recall going on a really nice section of brand new bike path, through woods and stuff, and that will be still in great shape.
I know tourism supports the bike route a lot, so looking for B+Bs or cheap hotels should be pretty straightforward, Im not sure of campgrounds but I doubt theyd be open that late in the season, I could be wrong though.

also dont forget that up in the Saguenay region, English isnt spoken that much, so just take that into consideration if you need to call places to ask about accomodation or whatever, you may have to drag out your 30 odd year old French....

OldZephyr

I agree 100% with djb.

You can get a 14-32 7 speed cassette with decent jumps between gears (14-16-18-21-24-28-32). Pair it with an inexpensive mountain triple (22-32-44) crankset -- you can find those for $40 -- and you will appreciate the low gears.

LesterOfPuppets

I'm so slow I ride a triple on my Lemond with nothing on it. I even put a 26T in place of the 30T little ring. 26x26 is needed for a couple of hills around here.

My touring rig sees almost as much dirt miles as pavement miles, so it gets even lower gears.

cyccommute 

What works for you doesn't necessarily work for everyone else. I'm not a weak rider but I wouldn't ride a 34/32 on a rail trail. I would also consider a 28/32 to be a "high" low gear. On my most recent tour of the Northern Appalachias, I had a 22/32 and I had to walk more hills then I've ever had to walk before eventhough I've toured in very similar terrain. I've done 20/34 in the past and didn't have to walk anything in the southern Appalachias

My current gearing is a 20/36 mostly because I can and I hate walking rather than pedaling.

Get gears as low as you can.

boomhauer

totally agree....
This is the TOURING forum.
Someday, you will need a super low gear.
If the pass you climb last more than a couple hours you would beg for it.

saddlesores

is true. here in chinaland, especially in the south, it's nothing but hills.
hills and more hills, and when you're done, even more hills.
gradients aren't so steep, but you wind up an 8-10% grade for up to 40 km.
yes, that's right. 40km continuous winding up a ridge.
at 6-8 khm, well you can do the math....
and they sometimes throw in some 12% grades to spice it up.
and it just goes on for thousands of kilometers.

but then you head south into laos for a break, only to find...



you made it! but then....




oh.....crap!

psy

Gear as low as you can. I have a 22 36 for a low. I don't use it a lot, but when I need it, it's there.
And spinning isn't just a touring thing.
spinners are winners: Chris Froome averaged like 97rpm or something in the TDF.

DonValley

Great info, thanks. Another possible destination might be along the highway between Quebec city and Tadoussac. This is Hilly terrain and I am familiar with the area. I am half French, so looking forward to using the Joual I practice all the time when I am alone in my car. Love using it on telemarketers. French is one of the least heard languages in Toronto.

I agree I must go lower, so more money will be spent on the bike. I also find the crank on this bike rather narrow compared to my other bike . It 's crank is about a half inch wider.

chasm54

I rode from Quebec City to Tadoussac as part of a much longer Toronto - Toronto loop a few years ago. it isn't exactly mountainous, but there are enough hills to keep you honest. Great place to ride.

Whatever your immediate plans, it makes sense on a touring bike to choose gearing that is lower than you think you need. I'd suggest having a low gear of around 20 gear inches - something like a 24 tooth chainring with a 32 sprocket at the back.

djb

before I forget, the reason the Miyata has 50/44/28 is that the 44/50 is to give "half step" ratios, to get inbetween gears in terms of gear inches by going back and forth between the 50 and 44 and changing the cog at the back. This was common with 5 and 6 speed cogs , but tended to peeter out by 7 speeds. Like I said, we tend to spend a lot lot of time in the mid chain ring, and a 44 is just too high in my experience. Thats where the suggestion of a 36 comes in, but this leads us to your "maybe" intended route (Tadoussac) and back to the suggestion of a mtn crank, 42 or 44/32/22.

I dont know how long its been since you have driven that route, but you will remember just how fricken hilly it is, really long long steep climbs in places. I have driven it a few times, and once you get past the area where you turn off to go to the ski hill Mt Ste Anne, it goes up and up and up. "The North Shore" has always had a real reputation of being a tough touring route, even going back to 91 when I did the south shore of the Gaspe (and that had its share of real tough buggers of climbs).
While I havent ridden Quebec to Tadoussac, I have ridden unloaded areas out near Tadoussac, and can attest to it being hilly. I've ridden fully loaded down the west coast of the states, which is pretty hilly, and also toured loaded along most of the Pyrenees east to west, and each time I have driven a car out to Tadoussac, as I drive up those long long grades with my foot deep in the pedal going 80kph, I have a lot of respect for folks who have toured out there.

These comments are more to give a heads up, if you dont do a lot of climbing regularly, especially with a load on the bike, Tadoussac will be a big challenge, physically and mentally. A lot of long climbs comes down to having low gearing (easily 20 g.i as Chasm suggests) so you can find a comfortable cadence and just plonk along "within" yourself and your knees, but also a mentality of having done lots of climbing so you dont get psyched out by it, stamina and being able to plonk along.
Then we get into the climate out there, the St Lawrence has a "refridgerator" affect , as the water of the river is about 3 or 4c all year round, and so even in august, it is generally cooler than elsewhere. I've ridden out there on the south shore of Gaspe twice, in early aug and the end of aug, and generally is is cool (often 20c max) and nights are colder too, so in the fall, you must be aware of the temps on the north shore and be prepared for cool, or cold, or all with rain.
Comes down to planning for it, and being aware of the conditions. At some points past Mt Ste anne, you also end up quite high up, I forget the elevation, but there are some super beautiful sections, but also pretty open and isolated, so you really need to know the distances between towns--because haven ridden in the Pyrenees as an example, your daily average could be maybe 60-70km tops, or at the least, a lot less than you may think. So take this into consideration if motels or whatever are planned, you just cant assume you can ride 100km in a day and get to your next spot to sleep.
I'd look seriously into the mtn crank option, as this trip idea will involve lots of slogging. Dont be concerned about not having high speed gears, the downhills out to Tadoussac will get you going warp speed just by gliding (remember there are lots of those truck "no brakes escape gravel trap" emergency side route things-the downhills are pretty serious out there. But you sure as hell will be chugging along uphill for ages at 6, 7, 8kph so you have to have really low gears.

To get a better idea of the elevation gains and losses you'd be dealing with, I suggest playing with google maps, or mapmyride or some other program, where you can plot out a route and it can give you elevation gains for a given route. At least with this you could compare the results to I dunno, riding up and down a steep hill into the Don Valley 25 times or something, just so you know what you are getting yourself into.

as for the temps, dont forget that added clothes will add some more weight to your load, and when climbing a lot, every 5lbs more makes it harder....but you have to ride loaded to see how it goes for you, but lower gearing will be a priority.

personally, I'd keep the Tadoussac idea for warmer weather, july aug, just cuz I'd be very wary of being in inclement weather and combined with a very very challenging route to begin with...well, you decide after looking into the details.

Leebo

Yup, my last tour took me through the eastern hills of CT. Lots of 8% grade signs, steep pitches up. Wished I had lower than my 22-34. If you don't need the low gears, that's great. Just shift up a little. But much easier to use the low gears than it is to walk.

chasm54

I did the Quebec City - Tadoussac section in late May. Sometimes chilly, occasionally pretty wet, but basically OK.

DonValley

DJB, I have driven out to Tadoussac and the area many times. Le Massif is one of my favourite ski destinations and the folks in the Charlesvoix are tops for hospitality. I remember how hilly it is (while driving a car) and would be realistic at the slow progress I would make. As for the down hills, I would exceed my comfort zone on those. I also have very warm gear . Great small tent, fantastic light down bag. That combined with modest ambitions and no schedule to be anywhere would make the hills doable. Lot's of breaks, but I think you are right about the late season weather and challenging terrain. I am open to other suggestions in the East. Ontario and perhaps Vermont. My window is early October and time wise I figure I would be 4-5 days on the road. The main thing is I would be outdoors unless I was sleeping. I love fall, even though it is so short. Late October I will be doing high elevation ski race training in Colorado, so this trip is to really to get my lungs used to passing air through them.
I am convinced my bike needs new gearing so will research my options. I have found a Shimano cassette that is 13-34, so hopefully the mountain bike suggestion would go well with that. If anyone knows of specific parts that are good value and long term quality that would be appreciated.

djb

Sounds like you are well prepared, guess it comes down to the giant roulette wheel of weather patterns, but that's completely out of anyone's hands.
The rest, well, it's the old outdoor mantra, plan for the worst so you cover your keester.
As you say, it certainly is a beautiful area, as is Vermont, so you'll have a great time no matter what you do. Just be flexible I guess for the weather factor and go from there.

DonValley

Dropped by a local bike store today and got some inconclusive options I thought I would run by those that have helped with their advice so far.

He suggested that my derailleur probably could not handle anything over 32. The 13-34 Shimano cassette for about $40 CDN seems like it was going to be a good option.
As for the front, he showed me a Deore crankset, seems rather expensive at $160 plus.

Anyway, here is a shot of my derailleur. It is a Shimano STX RC


It also says on it integrated 8 SIS


Looks to me like it is well suited to a wider selection of ratios. ANybody know if there is a spec as to what range this derailleur can handle? Still a good unit?

Also it seems the crank options involve a 9 speed crank. Do these work on 7 speed bikes?

A little confused with my options.

This one caught my see and is priced more reasonably

Shimano Deore M590 9 Speed Triple Chainset | Chain Reaction Cycles


Thanks in advance

bikemig 

By and large Shimano parts are cheaper from the UK than from North American vendors. The Deore 9 speed RD is a good choice. Yes a 9 speed crank will work with 7 on the back.

You can try your RD with a 13-34 and see if it works or not. Looks like it is rated for a 32 but Shimano is conservative in its estimates, VeloBase.com - Component: Shimano RD-MC38, STX-RC