cyccommute 

Shops drive me crazy! The shop guy knows doesn't know what he is talking about. The STX is a fully capable middle end derailer that was built for mountain bikes in the mid90s. It is fully capable of handling a 34 tooth cog. Shimano said that it the maximum was 32 but Shimano always estimated very conservatively. It will handle a 34.

Why not go with an 11-34 cassette instead of the 13-34. You'll have more high gear.

This derailer would work with a 5,6,7, 8 or 9 speed cassette in index mode without any issues whatsoever. And, yes, it was a good unit when new. It's likely to still be a good unit given that it looks in good shape. It appears to have a lot of life left in it.

You could even use a 10 speed crank on your bike. The crank is backward compatible in that you can use a wide chain like a 7 speed chain on a 10 speed crank. You can't use a narrow 10 speed chain on a 7 speed crank, however. At least not easily.

That is an excellent unit. Dead easy to install. I'd suggest going with the 48/36/26 unit and ditching the 26 chainwheel for a 22. Makes climbing every so much easier and you'll have a great gear for screaming down the other side.

DonValley

Thank you for answering all my questions Cyccomute. I think I have a plan of action now and a recipe to follow. Will look for an 11/34.
One last thing, what is the difference in the crank length option? 170vs 175? Seems like splitting hairs.

I took my bike out to a steep hill yesterday and tried going up un loaded with my existing gearing. Yes, I will need low gears that is for sure.

Edit** on looking for a 11-34 sprocket I don't see too much….except this crazy pricey one
https://www.amazon.com/KCNC-Shimano-S...ssette+7+speed

Does it make sense to convert to 8 speed while I am at it?

cyccommute 

It doesn't matter that much. 175 gives you a tiny bit more leverage but makes you spin a tiny bit slower. If you are average sized (~2 m), either would work. I tend to ride the 175mm.

That's a titanium wonder that's hand carved by Russian princesses and polished with the tears of babies

You can get more reasonable 11-34 by taking "Shimano" out of the search field. There's an Origin 8 for $20 or any of the first 6 on this page would work as well. Niagara Cycle has this one for $19. They would all work.

Are your shifters indexed? If not do you want indexed? Shifters add cost and you have to have them matched to the cassette. Barend shifters are pretty cheap...$70 to $80 US...so if you want more gears, go to a 9 speed. You might, however, need a new freehub body and a transplant if your current wheel is for a 7 speed cassette. If it has a spacer behind the cassette, it's ready for 9 speed. But a 7 would do quite nicely with the least amount of headache.

DonValley

Yes I have indexed bar end shifters, so I'd have to add one into the already over budget budget. Do 8 speed units fit without worrying about spacers (plug and Play?)

djb

re: 8 or 9 speed bar end shifters. Not seen that often used, but this company, Microshift, makes new 8 and 9 spd bar ends. I was going to bring up going to 8 speed, but as cycco says, if you are going to do it, go to 9-- IF its not more complicated for the rear hub (and cycco knows more about this than me)

as for just getting a used 9 speed ready rear wheel, the issue here is the spacing of the frame, the width, and subsequent width of the hubs. Your miyata and my old Kuwahara have narrower hubs than 9 speed bikes, I think the rear spacing of our frames are 125mm, and new ones are 135? Am I right with that cycco?

on the subject of more speeds in back, first I would say that at a certain point (as you say) you have to look at how much money is being spent, vs buying a newer second hand bike, or simply not spending the money or limiting it to respect the budget you should keep at for this endeavour.

The bonus of more speeds is that for the same range of cassette, lets say 11-32, with a 7 speed you will have bigger jumps between shifts compared to a 9 speed 11-32.
You know, you are in a headwind and one gear is a bit too high, one is a bit too low sort of thing--and with a load on a bike, this gets shown up even more.

In that gear chart I referred to, its good cuz it shows the percentage of jump between shifts. As I said, I toured a lot on the 7 speed 13-30 cassette, and still recall some frustrating "one gear too high, another too low" thing happening.

Ive attached a bunch of gearing charts with a 48/36/22 crank, and I added in one 44/32/22 for good measure, info for each one in teh file name, but look at the percentage jumps depending on the various cassette.
For myself, jumps of over 17% and 20% are too big. I'll attach my Kuwahara 13-30 again for reference.
Yes, these are small details I am bringing up, but good for you to at least be aware of. If I am boring the living crap out of you....no worries...

PS- if you go onto the Mountain Equipment Coop website, there are a number of roughly $15 7 speed cassettes available. I actually just bought two of the Sunrace ones to try out on a friends daughters bike. I've used Sunrace cassettes on my mtn bike commuter, and they work well, not high quality but good enough in that they just work well.

PPS My 8 speed mtn bike now has a 12-25 cassette on it (I wanted closer jumps between shifts) and in the mid 32t chainring and the 12t at the back, I can ride comfortably at 25kph, which is a very common speed to go along at.

saddlesores

microshift is good stuff. as good as shimano, perhaps even gooderer!

my shimano 9-spd index pod shifters died halfway up a 32-km climb, leaving me
with only the 3 tiniest rear cogs. made it another couple hundred km to the nearest
sizeable town, managed to mailorder the microshift equivalent for 1/3 the cost of
shimano. plug-n-play. i'll do a comparison write up some day soon.

anyways, microshift makes a nice range of stuff, if you can find it.
they gots 7-8-9-10 speed shifters, pod shifters, thumbies, barends,
gripshifts. some of them have friction options. play well with shimano.
you could keep your 7 or 8 speed rear, go indexed very cheaply.

microSHIFT -The best control system

cyccommute 

It would depend on the freehub. If you have a 7 speed freehub, it's too narrow for the 8 and 9 speed cassettes. It's not that difficult to change out the freehub but it is involved. If you have an 8 speed freehub, all you have to do is slide on a 8 or 9 speed cassette.

If your bike currently has an 8 speed freehub, there will be a spacer behind the 7 speed cassette but you'll probably have to remove the cassette to determine that. If there is no spacer behind the cassette, your hub is a 7 speed freehub.

If you are over budget, stick with the 7 speed cassette. It has some larger jumps between the gears but that not a huge problem. This gear calculator will let you compare drivetrains in a visual manner. For example, here is a comparison of a 9 speed and 7 speed 11-34 with a 48/36/22 crank. You can see that there are gaps in the range for the 7 speed and there is a large step from the 26 tooth gear to the 34 tooth gear but that doesn't make as much difference as you might think. Usually when you are in need of that low gear you really need it and a big jump like that one isn't of much consequence. The 9 speed is a little smoother transition but the 7 speed will get the job done. Heck, we used to tour with 5 speeds covering nearly the same range.

If you stick with the 7 speed for now, you can also always change the gearing later when you have more budget.

I second, by the way, what saddlesores says about microSHIFT. It's pretty good stuff and they haven't gone all stupid like Shimano and Sram. They still offer stuff that can be used for touring. Shimano's Dynasys has effectively cut off the flow of wide range gearing to the touring world.

DonValley

Thanks for all the great information. I certainly don't find it boring. I did some experimentation with my other bikes yesterday on the same hill. My Kuwahara has a smaller middle ring but otherwise has the same gearing. My Kula Deeluxe has the 22 tooth front ring and a 12-32 in the back. I went up the same very steep hill with it and found it about perfect for when pedalling and moving slowly but still having the momentum to be stable. I think I will go with that ratio with the thought that the second gear will be very useful as well. Tried my bike going down slight down hills in top gear (50-12) and I think I won't really need to go that fast under power and loaded. As was mentioned in other posts steeper hill will be coasting and riding the brakes ( I know from previous tours when younger that I was slower than my friends when going down hill)
So far the parts list will be as follows.
Going to stick with the 7 speeds.

Deore crank 175 mm Silver
rings 22-36-48
Cassette Sram PG730 12-32
Chain Sram PG 870.

I will launch the purchase order in an hour or so.

djb

Very good points, especially about 7 speed being adequate for your introduction to touring and concerns about budget.

Cycco, are there not alivio level cranks for his existing square taper bb that would be even cheaper? But still perfectly adequate quality.
I seem to recall looking at them a few years ago when looking at replacing chainrings on my MTB bike commuter and I think they were about $50..

Donvalley, have you ever taken a cassette off or removed a crank and or other mechanical stuff? Do you have the tools to do this stuff yourself? If not, do you have the interest? MEC is pretty good for lower priced tools that will do the job, but in the end it depends on if you have the inclination to do it and or learn. Yes you have to purchase some tools but in the long run you save by doing a lot on your own.

DonValley

I have a cotter less crank puller and bottom bracket socket as well as a cassette tool and a chain breaker, if I remember correctly. (Haven't used them in a while) I also have been restoring a WW2 Lancaster bomber's Merlin V12, so have some mechanical aptitude….but really my biggest impediment these days is failing eyes.
I am not worried about the price at this point. I am enjoying getting good deals however. The crank and extra ring are about $110 Cdn or $82 USD. Seems like good value and hopefully a few grams lighter than what they are replacing.

saddlesores

have you checked the gear ratio charts, and the jumps involved?
i'm no expert, but the ring combo looks a little strange.
are you exceeding the maximum ring tooth difference?


*************************
checking the intertubes, an xtc rc front can have a max difference
in ring size of 26. so looks like it would work (axe expert!)
************************

DonValley

Well I will have to wait for official approval that this is doable and or sensible from the local experts. Thanks.

djb

Those Merlins are one of the sweetest sounding engines ever, gives me goosebumps every time I get to hear a Spit and quadruple goosebumps the few times I have seen slash heard that Lanc that has been in the skies for the last 25+ years.
Unique experience to work on that engine, important part of history.
Bottom brackets, pulling cranks and cassettes are pretty straightforward. Youtube vids abound so you have an idea beforehand.

DonValley

The Merlins (Made by Packard on Canadian Lancs …with Maytag valve covers) are like Rolex watches inside. Beautifully machined parts that last about 35 hours in the environment they were designed for. 10% attrition per mission if I remember correctly.

Sixty Fiver

On my expedition bike I run a compact triple with a 22/32/44 and a 12-32... max load for me has been 45kg (bike and gear) when I have been carrying extra water.

17-94 gear inches...



The pocket tourer has 20 inch wheels so it manages with a 42/53 and an 11-34 in the rear which does not give it quite as low a gear as the Kuwahara but then, it does not carry as much (even though it could).

23-90 gear inches.

cyccommute 

There might be but the spindle length on the existing bottom bracket may not match. Mountain bike cranks, especially modern ones, take narrower bottom brackets than most older road cranks. It's hard to tell from the picture but his crank looks like a typical road crank from the same era as his bike. Costwise, the Deore from Chain Reaction would be about the same as another crank and bottom bracket.

DonValley

Cycco, just getting my head straight on this, would this Shimano Deore crankset bolt on my frame? I can take a close up shot or measurements if there is doubt?

rifraf

Nice bikes!
Have you considered a Sram Dualdrive for this one?
I had a seperable Moulton APB for many a year which I upgraded to a Dualdrive and loved it.
25% under, one to one, and 25% overdrive make for a great range of gearing in the IGH part of the hub and then theres your choice of cassette up to i believe 10 speed from memory.

Sixty Fiver

I have started working with Sam Patterson and will be installing a Patterson drive with a 130bcd adaptor to run a 39 as the driver, this will give 21 gear inches at the low end and give me a virtual 62 tooth drive to bump up the top end to 105 gear inches as this bike also likes to go fast.

Low end is never an issue on a 20 inch wheel...

I also have a 20 inch SRAM dual drive wheel with a 9 speed driver so could conceivably run a 54 speed drive...

cyccommute 

Yes, but it is different from what you have now. It has two cups that extend outside the frame and hold the bearings. The spindle on the crank is fixed to the drive side and just slides into the bearing then is clamped on the other side with a pinch bolt. Here's a Youtube video on the process (skip to the middle of the video to see the actual installation)


It's very simple really.

DonValley

OK, just a different approach to the same end. I guess I didn't realize that this part of a bike frame has been remained standardized in size for so long.
thanks.

LesterOfPuppets

Wonder what possessed him to swap out that beautiful 600 crankset for that black 105 squid crank... ???

DonValley

Would my Miyata likely have reverse thread on the bottom bracket? In the video he mentions that you specify a mountain or road bike application. Is this a crank width issue? Do these cranks usually come with pieces to mount to both left and right hand thread?

Tia

bikemig 

English threaded BB, 68 mm BB; finding a crank and BB for that is easy peasy.

cyccommute 

Mountain bikes cups tend to have longer threads on the bottom bracket cups. They are subjected to more torque and a short thread can creak. I don't feel it matters all that much.