edthesped

For some reason I have a difficult time visualizing Gear Inches... I do better with ratio's and my ideal is around .75

elcruxio

Oh squeezy, you so funny. You do realize those two bikes come from the same factory right? As well as the Trek 520 and many, many other steel touring bikes. They all use the same 4130 steel with pretty much the same spec tubing.
In terms of handling which you so often claim is the weak point of the LHT, I don't really understand why you would want a racing geometry on a touring bike? Usually the steady and stable handling of a touring bike is seen as a bonus but whatever.
But honestly, even if the LHT is a bit slow on the steering side, I'd still crush you in a descent race any day of the week with the LHT against any bike you would care to choose for yourself. I can ride it down mountains at 80km/h with no trouble at all while dealing with tight switchbacks as well as bad tarmac.

Not to mention that the LHT is actually more agile in terms of handling than the Trek 920, because you know, it's not a mountain bike... Also it ranks up very similiarly with the Kona Sutra in terms of handling and is possible more nimble than the Kona Rove but with a larger wheelbase is of course significantly more appropriate for loaded touring than the Rove.

Like I said, it's more nimble than your bike. But I'm not surprised you don't really know about the handling of the LHT because you don't have real experience with it. One turn around the parking lot with an ill fitting frame size, most likely completely wrong fit and probably a wrong saddle height doesn't tell you anything. It tells you less, since you're basically riding a bike not meant for you at that stage.

If we compare factors that directly affect the handling of the bike
Steering angle: the 920 has a 71.5, the lht has 72 degrees so the LHT is more nimble.
BB Drop: The 920 has 85mm while the LHT has 78mm making the LHT more nimble
Trail: The LHT has a trail of 64mm while the largest 920 has a trail of 65mm and the smaller sizes have a lot more. more trail = slower steering response so the LHT is more nimble
Wheelbase = the LHT has a smaller wheelbase, ie it's more nimble than the 920.

Dang, this actually came as a surprise since I thought the 920 would be more nimble at even one metric but it's not. That thing handles like a freight train in tar. How on earth can you even turn that thing?
I'm just kidding, of course. Seriously though, you ride a very slow steering bike.

manapua_man

IME it's not really that big a difference between Di2 and properly adjusted cables, at least until cables start getting dirty and what not. If you just want it, that's cool but I don't think it's worth caring about unless you plan on racing.

Squeezebox

Elcruxio -- It simply comes down to you like your LHT, Good for you, it's a pleasure to have a bicycle that you like & trust, etc. I rode one once, it was one of my worst experiences on a bicycle. I see no reason to repeat the experience. To me the LHT felt heavy and unstable at the same time. Those are the simple facts, or opinions if you prefer. Really nothing else to talk about.
My brother hates tomatoes. I don't understand why, as I am very fond of them.

Blue Motobecane

Here's the doc I was talking about regarding mixing Ultegra brifters with XTR derailleurs: Tech FAQ: Mixing Shimano road, MTB Di2 derailleurs | VeloNews.com

So my understanding is that I could take an XTR Di2 drivetrain (required because the XT Di2 only does 1x11 or 2x11) and pair it with Ultegra Di2 shifters, then I could have a triple chainring, brifters, and electronic shifting. Worth the cost? Performance-wise, I'm sure it's not, but if it's the only combination that gives me those three things I would consider it. To me, spending $1500 for perfect shifting makes more sense than spending another $1500 on a "nicer" frame, when I'm not really sure what I'd even be getting for that money with this kind of bike.

Maybe I should just buy a stock Disc Trucker for now and feel more justified in blowing a lot of money on a drivetrain upgrade after a couple more years of technological advance and price drops, but I'm not sure I could last that long with bar end shifters. I was sort of expecting you guys to tell me that I should give them more of a chance, so now I am feeling very negative about them.

Thanks for all the discussion. I definitely plan to ride around on some more stock touring bikes, although I have yet to find a disc trucker in stock in my size. I have ridden a stock Pacer and a custom Crosscheck (belonging to friends) a fair bit, and I am impressed by both, so my limited Surly experience has been good. Of course, those were both built with road components. I'll also check out the other frames you guys have suggested here and find shops that carry all of these brands.

Doug64

QUOTE=Squeezebox;19698872]Personally I don't agree with upgrading. if you buy a good frame and put junk components on it, you've got a junk bicycle. Same with good components and a junk frame.
I've heard nothing but good stuff about E-shifting. But top end components deserve a top end frame. The LHT doesn't even make it to mediocre. Pick out a good frame. There's a lot of nice carbon "adventure" bicycles out there that should fit what you are talking about doing. Check out the tandem forum about wide range electronic shifting. Keep what you've got until you can get good everything.[/QUOTE]

Why didn't you follow your own advice when you upgraded your bike?

I have 2 daughters that ride LHTs downhill fully loaded at 40mph/ 65kmh without any handling problems at all. They are skilled riders, and experienced bike tourers.

P.S. they also like their bikes

indyfabz

Oh look. Someone has turned this thread into another LHT-hashing thread. What a surprise. NOT!

Doug64

Yeah, but how can you argue with someone who has ridden one once around the parking lot? It is getting a little old.

J.Higgins 

I had an LHT and I liked it. Sturdy. Practical. The ride was nicely... ordinary. I did not like the 26" wheels and I did not like the canty brakes, even though I upgraded them to Paul cantilevers. So I sold it and built a Surly ECR.



If I were going to build a steel-framed touring bike now, it would probably be the either the Salsa Vaya or the Salsa Fargo. If you want to stay away from 29" wheels, I'd go with the Marrakesh.

Boondocksaints

If you're considering the Cross Check, you should get the Surly Straggler instead. It's the same thing as Cross Check, but with disc brakes.

indyfabz

Fify

Blue Motobecane

Ok, my new plan is to buy the complete Straggler and never learn anything about SRAM components so that I don't feel tempted to upgrade for no good reason .

Squeezebox

You'll find a lot more info about di2 in a wide gear range in the tandem forum. as well as cable brifters and wide gear range. triples also.

mstateglfr 

Di2 STIs works on a triple? What front derailleur would you use paired with which crank?

Blue Motobecane

With the substantial disclaimer that my only experience with Di2 so far is five minutes of playing at a bike shop, it sounds to me like the only role played by the shifter is to tell the derailleurs to go up or down, so I think as long as you match derailleurs, you can use any Di2 shifters. So I'd use XTR front and rear derailleurs, since XTR is the only Di2 set that supports a triple. For the crank, why are you asking? I haven't researched enough to choose a specific model yet, but I'd probably consider something lower tier in the Shimano MTB lineup. If you're hinting at the maximum chainring size that the mountain derailleur can handle, I assume that's an issue I'd have to consider, but I don't think I will miss a massive chainring on this kind of bike anyway.

I talked to a friend of mine who rides a Surly Crosscheck with road components earlier and I think now I'm seriously leaning toward just getting the complete Straggler for now. Obviously will have to ride it and see how I like the SRAM components.

edthesped

I'm very curious about the Di2 brifters with MTB front and rear derailleurs, do keep us informed of your findings if you decide to pursue this further. As far as Sram is concerned, I personally like their stuff a lot, though if you go for brifters you are pretty much stuck with a double chainring. Another option, though risky is Xshifter. I read a bit about them and though not ideal do appear to be the most viable way to mix and match all manners of components. I'd consider trying it out if I could get it cheap but it's too pricey for me to gamble with though it's also something I'll be watching as I'd love a nice trekking groupo sans friction or bar end shifters.

Squeezebox

I heard that thru axles are better with disc brakes. My Sram stuff works well for me. Lots of stuff set up like the Cross check.

mstateglfr 

A mountain bike front derailleur may not work well with a road crank due to the curves of each. an MTB triple FD is typically going to be a tighter curve than the large ring of a road crank's chainring since a road crank's large ring is typically 50 or 52 teeth and an MTB triple often has a 42 tooth large ring.

Then there is the issue of how many 'clicks' Ultegra Di2 shifters have. Di2 is all computer based and limited to only what the system can handle, so if Ultegra Di2 shifters are like regular Ultegra 6800 shifters and only made for 2 chainrings, then you are SOL on using a triple up front.

I admittedly know little on the complexity of Di2. It isnt anything I am interested in using and my interest is limited to just understanding how it works rather than wanting to own it. I am a tinkerer at heart and from what i do for sure know, that is the antithesis of tinkerability.

ce111917

I hope you don't mind if I steal this for my signature.

Blue Motobecane

I was envisioning a mountain crank, just not sure which, and haven't researched the details of each or of bb compatibility, etc.

I'm not sure I agree about tinkerability, although I also clearly need to learn more. It's not as though cross-compatibility is a strength of modern index shifting systems, either, and if the electronic systems allow you to mix and match shifters and derailleurs more easily, that's a strength. My understanding is that the guts of the Di2 system are in the derailleurs, and they would tell the computer how many clicks they have, so the shifter doesn't need to know anything about that.

The xshifter system is interesting, if I could use it with brifters. Pushing a rinky-dink button doesn't sound much better than bar end shifters to me. I wonder why they don't include a wired option. I bet that the Shimano Di2 shifters are just using TTL logic or something that could be easily used by any other controller.

Marcus_Ti

The most straightforward way is R785 Di2 brifters, if you want brifter controls. R785 are MTB/road agnostic--look at their name, it lacks "Dura Ace" or "Ultegra" or "XTR(R)" branding for good reason....they're agnostic controls that will control any matched derailleurs you plug into them. Caveat being, they only have 1x E-Tube port between them, so to get sprint or TT shifters you'll need a 5X port Junction A.

The shifters are basically mouse buttons with brakes. The battery and the derailleurs are the brains. So long as you think you'll be happy with MTB cranks, the MTB ders are what you want....IIRC the Di2 XT(R) FD has a 40 or 42 max cog size.


Just note...since you're talking about E-Tubing a Surly....you'll need zip ties. Google external Di2 mounting, it tends not to be that pretty.

djb

another poster here showed us this gearing chart that is very flexible and easy to use, where it says "display" change it from "teeth" to "gear inches" and you and the original poster here can easily see what gear inch numbers you get for a given bike and gearing setup.

Bicycle Gear Calculator

I learned gear inches from a chart more than 25 years ago, after a bike trip where it was clear my low gear wasnt low enough. So, to make changes, I changed my granny gear from a 28t chainring to a 24t one, which I then learned from the bike store guys to see on the chart that it went from about 25gear inches, (g.i) to about 21. My next trip was soooo much easier on my knees and legs having lower gearing...........so I than had a reference of g.i for a given load along with a given sort of terrain I rode in, ie the steepness of hills.

you need to understand what your bike has in low gears, I prefer gear inches cuz thats still a commonly used term, plus I learned it long ago.
And then relate this number to the variables I mentioned.

mstateglfr 

Yeah, i didnt even get to that part of things. Good point- elegant it isnt.

jonc123

I'm going to skip back to the first post and forget about most (but not all) of the rest. If you know what you like in a bike such as bars, seat, seatpost, brakes and shifters, tires, wheels, etc. I would not go with the complete (Surly) bike. After a period of not riding, I decided to start back up and tour. I was a previous backpacker, so I knew what I wanted to do which was roll a whole bunch instead of walk. About 10,000 miles later I have made quite a few changes. I want to make more, but I'm kind of like, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I keep on looking at the stock wheels and think, well, I could spend some $$ and get some lighter ones that are probably just as strong. Or many other things could be replaced the same way. Then again, I've hit so many potholes and they are pretty true, think I'll keep them a while.

Only other thing I can think of, if the frame has the qualities you want and has the proper fit *AND* you just like it and think it's for you, you can put whatever level of components you want on the bike. Then again, I don't know you. If you plan on hauling 4 panniers and a case of beer, just go with what works well and will last a long time.

Additional note, I need around 16 G.I., don't use it very often but when I do.....

jonc123

How many miles have you toured in the last 10 years?