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2019 Salsa Marrakesh.

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2019 Salsa Marrakesh.

Old 09-21-18, 08:10 PM
  #1  
AlanK
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2019 Salsa Marrakesh.

The 2019 models keep coming. The only significant change seems to be replacing the Brooks saddle with the WTB Volt 142. Considering how polarizing Brooks saddles are I don't know whether to consider this an upgrade, downgrade, or neither.

Overall it's still essentially the same bike: great for touring and a capable all-arounder if a bit of a tank:

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/marrak...arrakesh_deore

Last edited by AlanK; 09-21-18 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 09-22-18, 04:13 AM
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Notice how everything you shop for now is smaller and you pay the same price? Prices keep rising and packages of food are smaller. Its just another corporate Salsa move to charge more and pay less. A WTB saddle probably costs them 10% of what a Brooks costs them. Oh, they'll have a good reason for why they made the switch, probably blaming it on sales or customer preference, but in the end its probably just to squeeze more blood out of the turnip.
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Old 09-22-18, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
Notice how everything you shop for now is smaller and you pay the same price? Prices keep rising and packages of food are smaller. Its just another corporate Salsa move to charge more and pay less. A WTB saddle probably costs them 10% of what a Brooks costs them. Oh, they'll have a good reason for why they made the switch, probably blaming it on sales or customer preference, but in the end its probably just to squeeze more blood out of the turnip.
I bought my Marrakesh this past April. I was stoked about getting a Brooks as standard equipment but understood they are not for everyone. After motor than 500mioes of saddle time, I swapped it for a WTB Volt. My a$$ is much happier! My thinking is not the $$ difference, rather a Brooks is not the saddle for everyone. I also am happy with the WTB Silverline on my Salsa Colossal, made it easy to find a new one for the Marrakesh.
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Old 09-22-18, 07:46 AM
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Silly for touring. A curved fork reduces road vibration. But I guess the disk brakes are sexy looking.
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Old 09-22-18, 07:54 AM
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42mm tires,

Originally Posted by IPassGas View Post
Silly for touring. A curved fork reduces road vibration. But I guess the disk brakes are sexy looking.
even at 60 tpi, will dampen the road chatter as much as fork rake.
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Old 09-22-18, 08:00 AM
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They chose a nice color.
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Old 09-22-18, 09:32 AM
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One major builder uses Physics-Logic, and so Curved blades , get No Disc.
Reasoning; every time you hit the front brake you un curve the left blade ,
more than the right,
because of the forces of the brake applied on the left blade.
so wheel twists a little.. within the fork, etc.

So stiff and straight is your tradeoff for having disc brakes..
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Old 09-22-18, 09:38 AM
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and Ass to Saddle.. best match of , cannot be done at a factory level since they have no control
over the shape of the pelvis of the buyer..


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Old 09-22-18, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by IPassGas View Post
Silly for touring. A curved fork reduces road vibration. But I guess the disk brakes are sexy looking.
how is this claim still going on?
a curved fork does not absorb more vibration.
a curved fork and straight fork with the same rake will feel the same. Both will absorb the same vibration and spring the same amount.

further, the wall thickness of the blades is quite important. A 1mm blade under a 125# rider is excessive and would feel harsh compared to a .8mm blade, and thats regardless of if its straight or curved.

as has been mentioned too, tire width and pressure play a big role on vibration damping.

This is coming from well experienced and respected builders. Sachs. Llewellyn. Colnago. Grant Peterson of all people even acknowledges the spring and damping of a curved blade is a myth.

with the same rake and tube diameter/thickness, forks will perform the same- straight or curved.
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Old 09-22-18, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
how is this claim still going on?

a curved fork does not absorb more vibration.

a curved fork and straight fork with the same rake will feel the same. Both will absorb the same vibration and spring the same amount.


further, the wall thickness of the blades is quite important. A 1mm blade under a 125# rider is excessive and would feel harsh compared to a .8mm blade, and thats regardless of if its straight or curved.


as has been mentioned too, tire width and pressure play a big role on vibration damping.


This is coming from well experienced and respected builders. Sachs. Llewellyn. Colnago. Grant Peterson of all people even acknowledges the spring and damping of a curved blade is a myth.


with the same rake and tube diameter/thickness, forks will perform the same- straight or curved.
True, if the fork is properly designed to flex. But, the norm on mass production bikes is straight stiff forks to work properly with disk brakes. This article is appropriate

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...des-dont-flex/


Perhaps, the Marrakesh has some flex, good for Salsa. But then a rim brake would allow a fork with more flex and more shock absorption for touring.
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Old 09-22-18, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by IPassGas View Post
True, if the fork is properly designed to flex. But, the norm on mass production bikes is straight stiff forks to work properly with disk brakes. This article is appropriate

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...des-dont-flex/


Perhaps, the Marrakesh has some flex, good for Salsa. But then a rim brake would allow a fork with more flex and more shock absorption for touring.
yup, the Heine test. I dont disagree thst forks flex. I accept thst they flex. The video bike has a French bend on the fork which is, for all intents and purposes, not seen anywhere on production bikes or even handbuilt bikes. That style is so rare it shouldn't be used as a discussion point.

the fork in that YouTube video flexes. Absolutely. And a straight fork at thst same rake would also flex. I doubt any straight forks have 65mm of rake though since that much rake isnt a popular design style, so there is then no test to show the flex.

a 45mm rake(much more common on drop bar bikes) will absorb the same road chatter on a straight blade fork as a curved fork.

as for disc brakes, well there are still curved disc forks, albeit few options.
if the tubing is the same, a straight fork will flex and absorb the same as a curved fork.

the test was basically written about as a passive advertisement for what he sells- kesai tubing.
there were no numbers about rake of each fork. Why not? It was even mentioned in the discussion section, but not addressed again.


well at least i answered my rhetorical question of how this misinformation continues to be repeated- its because of simplistic studies(by an otherwise excellent team who typically sets up fantastic studies) and also because many dont understand the numerous working parts of a comfortable fork.
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Old 09-22-18, 12:28 PM
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but they sure are pretty...


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Old 09-22-18, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
yup, the Heine test. I dont disagree thst forks flex. I accept thst they flex. The video bike has a French bend on the fork which is, for all intents and purposes, not seen anywhere on production bikes or even handbuilt bikes. That style is so rare it shouldn't be used as a discussion point.
Wouldn't this Soma Grand Randonneur fork be considered having a French bend?



(Serious question. I've wondered if that fork would have more shock absorption than most forks.)
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Old 09-22-18, 12:46 PM
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BITD, For Cobbled/ farm roads the fork blades had a Tight radius J bend at the tip,
and on the nicer ones, 531 fork tubes were quite thin wall ..
so they did take up some road roughness.. that was like in the 50's..

interestingly the German Tout Terrain Forks had 1 blade larger on the left,
so as to compensate for the additional forces, of the caliper on the fork tip.


...
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Old 09-22-18, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
Notice how everything you shop for now is smaller and you pay the same price? Prices keep rising and packages of food are smaller. Its just another corporate Salsa move to charge more and pay less. A WTB saddle probably costs them 10% of what a Brooks costs them. Oh, they'll have a good reason for why they made the switch, probably blaming it on sales or customer preference, but in the end its probably just to squeeze more blood out of the turnip.
I'm actually surprised bike companies aren't having to cut more corners with all the recent trade issues between the US and Asia. Many speculated it could lead to significant inflation for overseas made products, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case with bikes. So far if there are any prices increases seem nominal.

Your assertion that the WTB saddle costs 10% of the Brooks is hyperbolic fallacy. The WTB typically retails for about $80, a standard mens Brooks is about $110. Many riders don't seem to like the Brooks anyway.

Do some research before espousing counterfactual, ideological rhetoric.

Last edited by AlanK; 09-22-18 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 09-22-18, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Wouldn't this Soma Grand Randonneur fork be considered having a French bend?



(Serious question. I've wondered if that fork would have more shock absorption than most forks.)
yes. That has 65mm of rake, I think.
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Old 09-22-18, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AlanK View Post
I'm actually surprised bike companies aren't having to cut more corners with all the recent trade issues between the US and Asia. Many speculated it could lead to significant inflation for overseas made products, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case with bikes. So far if there are any prices increases seem nominal.

You assertion that the WTB saddle costs 10% of the Brooks is hyperbolic fallacy. The WTB typically retails for about $80, a standard mens Brooks is about $110. Many riders don't seem to like the Brooks anyway.

Do some research before espousing counterfactual, ideological rhetoric.
Ouch, okay.
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Old 09-22-18, 10:20 PM
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Looks like a good touring bike & I like the color. IMO it makes sense for better-quality bikes to include cheapo pedals & saddle since so many riders have their special preferences.
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Old 09-23-18, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
Ouch, okay.

can't necessarily equate the retail price to the wholesale price, nor to the unit cost paid by a high-volume distributor.



then consider some of these are made in-house or under contract to the brand/assembly......that 10% hyperbolic fantasy may not be so fantastic after all.
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Old 09-23-18, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
can't necessarily equate the retail price to the wholesale price, nor to the unit cost paid by a high-volume distributor.



then consider some of these are made in-house or under contract to the brand/assembly......that 10% hyperbolic fantasy may not be so fantastic after all.
That might be true in some cases, but considering WTB saddles are stock on many different bikes by different manufacturers it's highly improbable the saddle on the Marrakesh is made 'in-house'. It costs less than the Brooks, but no way it's 90% less. That's just NC being hyperbolic.
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Old 09-23-18, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
how is this claim still going on?
a curved fork does not absorb more vibration.
a curved fork and straight fork with the same rake will feel the same. Both will absorb the same vibration and spring the same amount.

further, the wall thickness of the blades is quite important. A 1mm blade under a 125# rider is excessive and would feel harsh compared to a .8mm blade, and thats regardless of if its straight or curved.

as has been mentioned too, tire width and pressure play a big role on vibration damping.

This is coming from well experienced and respected builders. Sachs. Llewellyn. Colnago. Grant Peterson of all people even acknowledges the spring and damping of a curved blade is a myth.
This is almost entirely wrong. Testing both - static and dynamic - shows that curved forks, even a moderate curve to rake the fork around 45mm, deflect much more than a straight leg fork. And the more the fork legs are raked, the more compliant the fork is. Steel straight leg forks are for ease of manufacture or aesthetics and are a negative for ride quality. There have been numerous tests showing this - Rinard's tests as well as Heine's tests in BQ Vol. 6 #3 . It's also easy to double blind test for yourself. The lever arm for curved forks is in a different spot than straight blade forks and gives much more compliance.

Straight blade forks flex sure but they flex much less and in different places than curved blade forks.




with the same rake and tube diameter/thickness, forks will perform the same- straight or curved
Impossible, a raked fork will not have the same tube diameter or thickness as a straight blade fork due to how the legs are bent. So in addition to the difference due to the curve there is always a tubing issue as well.

What's also fun is that it's possible to back into seeing the different fork flex from different fork rake by mounting low rider racks that attach at the drop out and the mid-fork eyelets. On a curved form the change in compliance is extremely obvious - the fork gets much stiffer as the primary area of compliance is triangulated and allows little flex once a rack is attached. On a straight blade fork there is very little change with low rider racks as the compliance is almost entirely up near the fork crown where the tubes are much larger in diameter and much stiffer due to proximity to the crown.
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Old 09-23-18, 09:40 PM
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Ill let all the famed builders know they are wrong at our next gathering.


also- I receive BQ, so please don't think I dislike the company, but at what point can at least some of their testing be viewed as confirmation bias and performed to market their product?

also, I'm at a loss on the rinard test. Ive read it before- it shows forks deflect. I just googled it because i admittedly dont have an eidetic memory, and again came away with the article being about how forks deflect under a static weight.
ok then.

I was going to post this in the earlier response, but regretfully didnt. The fact that this is such an unclear point(and it is unclear, regardless of claiming it isnt) should give pause to claiming a curved fork absorbs more vibration.
I hate take a page out of the lazy anti climate change folk, but if there is conflicting views, then it isnt clear cut.

All my road, gravel, and touring forks are curved, so I would love to be able to confidently say they absorb more road vibration. Just waiting for some good testing. It's such a meaningless thing though at this point(in reference to how bikes are built now), I doubt it will be done.
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Old 09-24-18, 11:27 AM
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Trolling around Paceline it appears the claim from Grant Peterson also mentioned his evidence of lack of fork flex included paint chipping off if forks did flex appreciably. Which is hilarious, would you be so kind as to share the article if you have it available? I looked in the index of Rivendell Readers and was not able to find anything.

But just to make sure this shakes out fair I will claim Dave Kirk as being in the curved camp as well as every French constructeur.
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Old 09-24-18, 08:47 PM
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Yeah, I've also read that Kirk said curved forks flex more.
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Old 09-24-18, 09:17 PM
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Interesting that Colnago says straight forks absorb as well as curved: old Columbus steel Colnagos had the prettiest fork bend which by itself probably sold a lot of frames. Curved vs straight fork argument will become moot after a major US bike maker produces a drop-bar version of Euro aluminum frame/suspension fork bikes. For same weight as trad steel one gets better handling/comfort/safety. Suspension fork also allows one to use narrower faster tires. Susp fork can be adjusted for rider weight while hard forks are an inherent compromise.
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