I think valygrl's point was : not a good idea to have food in your tent...very bad idea. Toothpaste and other delicious smelling things too. BC, the Rockies and the Yukon = grizzlies with very good noses. Food goes up a tree.

Yea, that's what I was thinking from what she wrote too. Place foodstuffs and even clothing you've used while cooking at least 100 yards from your tent when not in use. I prefer bear-proof cannisters to the tree thing though. I've had funny things happen with the latter - not from bears, but resourceful raccoons or other unknown critters smart enough to climb out on a branch.

I will add my nod to the earlier post about True North bikes in Kitchener. Hugh built a 26" tourer this past spring. It is has been a great bike so far and would love to tackle the Dempster more that its rider. I know this is an ever lasting debate but I think 26" wheels will have an edge for strength and durability. Schwalbe Marathon XR tires look to me to be the tire of choice for the ugly roads. One thing to keep in mind about a custom frame is the cost. Everyone is tossing around the $1400 figure but that is just the frame. Once you build it up you are looking at about $3000-3500CDN. Not the Cheapest thing in the world but for me it was worth it. Like someone else said: you dont buy a custom because you have to, you buy because you want to. You are likely too late anyway for a custom frame for a tour early this coming summer.

The Thorn Nomad is a well-regarded 26" wheel expedition bike. They also have a variety of other models inc. Rohloff-equipped tourers.

They are currently being sold at a discount (£999 = 2285 Canadian).

http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/nomad.html

Yikes, my mistake. Sorry about that valleygirl. Of course you're correct.

My take on pepper spray is this - it's almost as likely to disable the user as the animal they're trying to use it on.

The Surly LHT has clearance for 700x42 w/ fenders or 700x45 without.

I currently ride with 700x35 Paselas and their is gobbs of clearance left.

Here are some more pics:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=81933

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=253646

I seem to recall seeing on the Riv website that the smaller Atlantis frames will accept tires up to 26 x 2.125", this would translate to around a 700 x 53 for the larger frames that accept 700C tires. Fat tires like that could be a real good thing to have on the tour that the OP proposes.

Yes, that was my point. Didn't mean come off as rude, sorry.

The Surly's 54cm and smaller will accept tires 26 x 2.1" with or without fenders.


http://www.surlybikes.com/longhaul.html

You folks are awesome. Thanks so much for all the advice.

I should've been more articulate in my first post. It's not that I have $1400 to spend on a frame and I'm looking for the best one. Rather, I DON'T have $1400 to spend on a frame, but if I NEED something that expensive, there are (crappy) ways to make money quickly. I was really hoping for someone to say "dude, this way cheaper frame will do the job" and this is exactly what I've been hearing. Thank you.

What I'll probably do is head over to Urbane Cyclist and compare their touring frame to the Surly LHT. Both are in the $400-500 range and seem very popular. That leaves extra budget for some wicked rims

And yeah, wheels are another important one -- I want to ride 700s, but everyone is suggesting 26". Here's my concern. The Trans-Lab (yup, i'm riding this early to avoid the bugs!), Klondike and Dempster highways are gravel, but this only makes up about 2,000 km of my route, compared to another 10,000 km of paved roads. Speed is ESSENTIAL. I want to cover a lot of ground in not much time, I want to do side journeys to Innu Labrador and the First Nations reserves in north Ontario, moreover, riding against the prevailing winds for 7000 km, and I want to reach Inuvik before the Mackenzie freezes so I can kayak to Tuk. Will a good set of 700s survive the gravel stretches?

As for the bears, this is a bit terrifying, but I do have an arsenal of repellents that I brought to the Arctic last year (spray, flares, bangers, cheap bourbon)... just a matter of hanging my food and hoping for the best! If things get dicey, I can always scare them off by singing Slayer tunes.

One other thing -- has anybody ever experimented with PV cells to power your speedometer and/or recharge discman batteries? A good friend of mine is a master engineer working in green power, and I'm thinking about getting him to build me some toys...

For info on solar charges check out 2 recent threads: "Heading Out Across the Country Tomorrow...Wish Me Luck" and "Solar Chargers."

Rivendell frames: really that good?
 

The LHT is a good choice, but I must say that I really like the Rivendell bikes. The Atlantis takes big tyres with fenders and is tough enough for expedition touring. The smaller frames (56cm and lower) use 650b tyres and the larger frames 700c. I own a Rambouillet and a Quickbeam and I've toured on both of them, they are great for road touring where you don't expect to be going off road. You might also look at the Saluki and the
A. Homer Hilsen (weird name, interesting bike)

The thing that I love about Rivendells is that they are really comfortable and have well thought out clearances and places for racks. I also like lugs......there are plenty of good tourers out there, but there's something about riding a Riv with a Brooks saddle that feels really nice (I know I'm a retro grouch). Also I'm a big fan of the wide Nitto Noodle bars (46 or 48cm) as they open up the chest and make for easy breathing and comfort.

Buying a bike from Rivendell isn't cheap, but you'll be spending the money where it matters most, on the frame and if you get the Phil Hubs and BB cartridge, on the moving parts. Also Rivendell are very helpful and always available on the phone.

Finally whatever bike you buy I think the most critical thing in touring is what you bring along. You have to be comforatble, but you should balance that with minimizing weight. To that end I set a 25lb limit on my touring gear, with ultralight camping techniques this is doable, 1.5lbs for a tent, 1.5lbs for a sleeping bag etc. here is a link to a guy that did a self sustained tour from Vancouver to S.F. on a Rambouillet with tent, sleeping pad and sleeping bag, this is how I approach touring, if you bare in the Yukon you might need more stuff though.

http://milly.org/rambouillet/

Yes if you get the right ones. Take a look here for some recommendations

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp

Get 36 or 40 spokes on the back and 32 or 36 on the front
Velocity Dyad is a super strong 700c touring rim and you can put up to 47mm tyres on it.
The Phil Wood 135mm touring hub is built like a tank, and about as heavy, if you want super strength
that's the way to go. For less money the White Industries Racer X hub is strong and light,
XTR is the way to go for best bang for the buck.

I use a 36 spoke Dyad rims with White Industries hubs on my Rambouillet and the are great.
they are slightly nosier than the Phil or XTR when freewheeling, but I don't really think its
an issue.

700x42 tires mounted on 36 or 40 spoke rims would be plenty of tire and wheel to get over gravel and dirt roads.

I have some Mavic A719 36h wheels mounted to Shimano XT hubs. They are very stout. If I mounted some 42-45mm tires there probably wouldn't be anything that I couldn't ride over.

Wind resistance and weight is gonna slow you down much more so than 1.5" of wheel diameter ever could. Speed of 700c vs 26" has been argued and tested for years and will be from now on and proponents of either size will never concede or agree. There are go fast tires for 26" also just as there are off road tires for 700C It is just sometimes difficult to find either of them in a bike shop.

Many of us use 26" because it is cheaper and easier to make a very strong wheel in that size. Personally I use 26' since I tour on and off road usually on the same tour.
700C wheels can be built plenty strong, So it should not be a issue if you want 700C as opposed to 26" you just will pay more.

I was north of goose. Actually goose was not snowy. I just fell like there are lots of parts of Canada that don't hit spring until June. If you weren't a national you might not know that. But I can see we live in the same town so your weather guess is as good as mine!

If you want an urbanite I'll sell you mine. It's a great bike I just got bitten by the build my own frame thing. Check out my loaded pictures on the loaded bike pictures thread, page 16.

I would also recomend looking at the Urbanite comuter. It is based on 26" tires, and it has essentially the same materials as the touring model. It might have broader shoulders in the fork which would help. About the only downside is the number of sizes available. You would want to check for a long enough wheel base and either the large frame fits or it doesn't.

http://ucycle.com/bikes/item.php?nam...r&cat=urbanite

"That's what I was worried about. If I was getting $1400 of bike, I'd bite the bullet and buy one. If I'm only getting $700 of bike and $700 of name badge, there's no way. I'm selling one of my favorite cameras to pay for this, so I want to make the most of my buck. Especially if the savings can help pay for a set of rock-solid rims like you suggested."

I think it is a lot of frame for the money, if you look at the first 700 it's more expensive than a chinese made tig welded frame, but then it is lugged etc... While I am partisan to TIG, there are reasons for prefering a frame made of upper level tubes and lugs. The second 700 is worth it for custom. You can't compare a Surly off the rack bike to a fitted one. However, unless a person really needs a custom bike, they would be better to go with a Surly or Urbanite for their first bike since often a beginer really doesn't know what they need either in fit or reatures, and will be back for another bik later anyway.

Check my 26" vs 700c post in the Newbie's guide above. I think there are three good reasons for you to go to 26" inch wheels on your proposed trip. One is that the tire range you will be most interested in will be the 1.25" and larger tires. That is the range best supported on 26. 26" wheels are stronger, and lughter for that mater. The other is the availability of parts will be far better. However, anything trick in parts will not be available so you probably end up with a draw on that point.

The biggest disadvantage to 26" wheels is that they come mounted on MTBs mostly, and only rarely on touring bikes. There is a touring bike just as surely as there is an MTB or a Sprint bike. And we should probably see them exchanged about as often.

The confusing part of the argument is that the hipster tourers are moving to 26" wheels for some reason, while the hipster MTBers are moving to 700c, sorry 29ers. I'm so confused.

"Wind resistance and weight is gonna slow you down much more so than 1.5" of wheel diameter ever could. Speed of 700c vs 26" has been argued and tested for years and will be from now on and proponents of either size will never concede or agree. "

And that will probably remain until someone wins the Tour de France on sonething other than 700c. However if the Tour was run with self-funded couch guys on 100 pound bikes, with a maximum speed of 10 mph for 99% of each day on the road...

Brianmcg123:
Thanks for the correction on tire width on the Surly LHT.

I also read Peter White's recommendation regarding the Velocity Dyads. I should say, however, that I had the exact opposite feeling regarding them. My single touring bike (Trek 520) has been equipped with a Mavic A719 rim (36 spokes) ever since the original Bontraeger MacFarlane tore apart. The A719 was built by me and has more than 15000 km of trouble-free riding so far, in spite of being used for loaded touring with and without a Piccolo attached to it, and lots of riding through potholes.

By comparison, my Co-Motion tandem came with 40-spoke Velocity Dyad rims. They stayed laterally true all the time, but humps developped during the Summer 2005. And they broke this spring, after less than 3000 km on them. Front rim had one spoke completely out (nipple pulled through the rim); both rims had about 3-4 mm of vertical deflection (10-15 mm out of true once the rims were off the wheels) and numerous hairline cracks around nipples, the valve hole, etc. I then replaced them with A719 rims this spring, which are still OK after 3000 km of loaded touring (tandem + Piccolo + panniers)

My experience would show that these aren't the best wheels for rough roads. But I admit my sample is small.


Markf:
For the Rinvendell, you should check on the acceptable width for 700 tires. A few years back, I remember reading that the 700c accepts wide tires, but not as wide as its 26" equivalent. Still wider than most 700c bikes accept, but maybe not wide enough for real off-road touring. I would suggest the original poster looks at the Rivendell bikelist and check there (http://bikelist.org).

MarkCoatsworth:
I had not realised you are in Toronto. Do take a look at Urbanite's offerings. Though I have seen neither in real life, I think that you'll get the same quality/benefits with an Urbanite frame and a LHT frame, plus you'll be able to discuss bike geometry with the conceptors of the frame. One drawback of Urbanites for good-road touring and especially commuting is that they have a high MTB-style bottom bracket (290-300 mm instead of 270-275 mm). But for the rough part of your tour, it will actually be an advantage.

The only things missing from the Urbanites are good steel racks. The Tubus rear rack is a great choice (Bruce Gordon also is). In the front, I would prefer a Bruce Gordon to any other. In your situation, you could probably ask Bruce to combine the Lowrider with a top platform so you would be able to raise the panniers if the ride is too muddy.

As for 26" vs 700, the debate is endless, but I'll offer these arguments :

– Well built wheels of either size will be equally strong. However, because of it's smaller diametre, a 32-spoke 26" wheel will be stronger than a 32-spoke 700c wheel. A 36-spoke 700c wheel will be stronger than a 32-spoke 26" wheel, though.

- 36-spoke 700c wheels are much harder to find than 7-8 years ago. While they haven't completely disappeared, they are fast becoming specialty items. 26" 36-spoke rims are considered tandem material.

- If you were to need to replace a wheel/rim/whatever part on the road, it should be fairly easy to find a 32-spoke wheel in either size, but you would probably have to order parts in other spoke count.

- If you decide to go with high-count rims, I would suggest you get an equal number of spokes on both wheels. Why? For replacement purposes. Let's say you break a 40-spoke rear rim in the North West and still have 1000 km of rough roads to ride onto. I would use the front rim on the rear hub (to have the strongest wheel there) and buy whatever cheap 32-spoke wheel I could find for the front.

- Generally speaking 26" and 700c tires can be equally fast... or equally slow. The factors to consider are solely tire width (i.e. weight), tread patterns and pressure. Use wide knobbies to ride in the mud or slush in Labrador, so you'll have so traction and will be able to lower pressure if it's too bumpy. Use wide slicks to ride in the dry gravel of the North West (if you arrive early enough). And use high-pressure narrow slicks in between. Differences are:
- You'll have no problems finding wide knobies in 26". Finding them in 700c is harder, even with the recent trends in 29" (actually fat 700c).
- You'll have a harder time finding 26" slicks on the road.

Depending on your road, I don't think you would be able to find any decent touring slicks in places like Baie-Comeau. Unless you want to keep your knobbies until Saguenay or Québec City, you might plan a drop off in Baie-Comeau.

Very hard to beat the LHT and there's a million recommendations on this group to underscore that.

My experience is that tires actually wear LESS on gravel than they do on pavement but I've never done a long offroad tour with a heavy load.

I should be more careful and specify that I am talking about 36 spoke or more wheels. In 26 for touring I am using 36 spoke MA2 wheels. Even though it is true that spoke counts keep falling, that is just one of many reasons to buy only hand built wheels. Anyone who is going to specify A719 rims or A717 for 26, can get whatever spoke count is made. One of the problems with 40 spoke wheels is that some of the better rims don't come that way, not to mention hubs. But there are lots of good hubs made in 36. Last time I was at Urbane they were selling the LX for 55 dollars can., the pair. Nashbar usually has some stranded nos stock in 36 hole, and it runs as low as 5 bucks. If I were budgeting big bucks for the needed stuff I would go for some 719/717 some serious hubs and high spoke count wheels.

Urbane rather likes the Alexrims DH22 for touring on a budget, or not:

http://www.alexrims.com/product_deta...=2&cat=2&id=69

You can get both sizes in 36 spoke.

My feeling is that if I saddled a rim I would probably just pick up a a whole wheel if it was 26" everyone has moutain bikes and in the middle of nowhere, even the local farmer might be able to fix you up.

Ah, I didn't realize it was a big debate -- just assumed bigger wheels would pick up more speed. Angular momentum is a function of radius, after all, but I guess there are so many more factors to consider. Either way, I'm a tall guy and will probably have to buy a 700C frame, which is fine. Don't mind spending a few extra bucks on solid parts.

Michel: thanks for the advice. Yup, it's pretty much down to Urbanite vs LHT, so I'll have to ride them both and see what I like better. I actually prefer a higher bottom bracket (like riding big chain rings) and if the Urbanite has better tire/fender clearance, that will seal the deal!

Peterpan1: yeah, my biggest concern is that Labrador City (which is inland and much colder than Goose) will still be snowy when I want to leave. I'm thinking I'll head out there on May 15 and start riding as early as possible. And I'll let you know about the Urbanite... if that's the bike I decide to go for, I'll be in touch!

nun: thanks for the info on Rivendell. I don't doubt that they are amazing bikes, but the logistics and costs of a 5-month trip are pretty serious, so if I can save $1000 on the frame, I will. That's a month of travel budget! Besides, this will be my first serious tour, so I don't yet deserve something that good (unless I absolutely need it).

On a totally different note, does anyone know if there is a train connection from Montreal to Sept-Iles?

A few options to consider:

1) Gunnar Rock Tour - 26" purpose-built expedition bike. A well thought-out bike with custom options. Has a very cool way to mount rear disc caliper too.

2) Thorn frame w/Rohloff. Can't beat internal hubs for expedition durability (aka no more bent hangers, carrying deraileur spares etc), and Thorn make frames that work with this hub in the best way possible.

3) Long Haul Trucker if you want to save $$ and have competant tourer. Load it up with set of Surly or Tubus racks, some Arkel panniers and you're ready to rock northern Canada eh!

We've been carrying bearspray in handlebar bags.

Enjoy the northern lights!

You might take a look at the touring bikes from Co-Motion Cycles ( http://www.co-motion.com/ ). Very nice!

I usually take pepper spray with me on hikes and have on bike trips. Maybe more for peace of mind. I jokingly call it my bottle of people seasoning.

As an Atlantis owner, I'd recommend you buy a Surly LHT.

Not that I regret tossing a huge bag of coin to Grantalf and his elves at Rivendell. We loves our precious. The bike excellently handles asphalt, gravel, and non-gnarly single-track. It's very nearly One Bike to Rule Them All, just as they promised. But, I don't like parking it outside the theater downtown during the midnight movie. And I only own it because I decided not to buy a car. Or a house. Save the money for candy bars; you're going to need a lot of them.

The Rivendell folks themselves can be rather precious. Rivendell wants to sell you the bike based on stand over height alone, but they sex up the approach by focusing on your "pubic bone." They even have a cut-away diagram of Cartoon Man displaying his pubic pone. Except Cartoon Man's pubic bone doesn't look anything like any pubic bone you've ever seen. The poor Man looks like he's sat down hard on someone else's ulna. It's more ***** than bone. But I digress.

The Atlantis is a great bike for touring, though I never figured out why the front fork doesn't have screwholes to mount the front rack. Rivendell had an entertaining but somewhat nonsensical explanation for this (lack of) feature that I've forgotten. It's too bad because Surly's very Nice front rack looks very adaptable.

But, the bike makes me happy every time I ride it. I wouldn't call exactly call it a Lexus (not quite that cushy) or a Mona Lisa (maybe Warhol's knockoffs). The bike is more like pretty pony with a gutsy disposition.


I have one other moderate priced suggestion, besides the LHT. How about a single speed steel mountain bike frame with a geared hub? Those frames are not that expensive. You wouldn't necessarily have to get a Thorn to make this idea work. The Rohloffs are too expensive, but I wonder if one of the other hubs might work. The extra weight of the hub could be weighed against some other advantages.

You can also get away with being very cheap, if you find the right used frame. Actually many "used" bikes were hardly used at all and the components may also have lots of wear.