Pepper spray is an interesting thing. in the middle of nowhere, you blast the bear, it get's somewhat put off. OK what next? Nowhere to hide, nowhere to go inside. You could try to run away on the bike. I talked to a guy who did bear control/deportation in Norther Ontario. He pepper sprayed a bear that was in a tube cage, and the bear was completely poleaxed. But out in the open with a confident bear... I'd carry it, but I would want something else to fall back on.

"You can also get away with being very cheap, if you find the right used frame. Actually many "used" bikes were hardly used at all and the components may also have lots of wear."

Right, my Urbanite only has 1100-1200 miles on it. It only gets ridden for touring. And I only got one tour in on it. Doesn't even feel broken-in.

I was in the Ubane cyclist yesterday, and they had an LHT frame in 60cm, if there is anyone in the TO area looking for a big ride...


One of my ambitions has been to build a guts and glory touring bike based on the best Nexus hub. I think we are at 8 speed on the red, and they are going to 9 speed in Schram this year. I did test drive an 8 and it was very impressive. I usually get a little concerned when I run the real gear inch numbers. I'm willing to throw out the top end since after the first few days I am happy to have a chance to coast and look around. Think of it as skiing do you ruin the view by double polling all the way down? But I notice a lot of folks hold to their upper ends so Nexus is a joke for them. Even if you are willing to run a tight range, the gear spacings are still wide enough to be a concern. Rohloff might be the one piece of over the top crazy touring gear that a trip such as the one being suggested, actually demands.

Now Since MarC was willing, if not enthusiastic, about spending 1400 US for a Riv frame, a real case could be made to spend 1000 for rohloff and 400 for surly, got yourself a dream team. Except the surly is a vertical drop. That's where the Urbanite comes in, Horizontal drops.

My Riv, too, came without braze-ons for the front rack. Grant's rationale for this was that the location of the braze-ons would vary depending on what kind of rack I got. At any rate, the hardware that came with my Nitto front rack holds therack very securely, so when I sent the frame in for a repaint I didn't bother asking for front rack braze-ons. I did, however, add a chain peg on the seat stay, as well as fender bosses on the chain stay and seat stay bridges. Those items should have been on the original frame, IMO.

And yes, I have had a blast touring and commuting on the bike.

mark

Two possible justifications for not having mid-fork braze ons.

1. It weakens the fork. So you need to make the fork slightly beefier to take that weakness into account.

2. Some racks are mounted otherwise. Including some of the better ones.

What racks are those, out of curiosity? A new bike I'm building up will have a front fork without braze-ons and I'll be searching for a good front rack soon.

The Atlantis is a very nice bike. At $1400 for the two-color painted-up frame with fork and an Ultegra/600 headset, it is at the upper end of reasonable but not unreasonable. To its credit, it is more expensively built and more carefully finished than either a LHT or a Trek 520, and the tubing is at least as good and probably better than that used with either of those other two bikes. Sizing is by standover, more or less. It is a carefully-speced and carefully designed stock frame, and is very capable of the uses you have in mind. Only you can judge your needs against your budget, but if you were to buy this bike, it would be money well-spent. That isn't to disparage the less expensive alternatives. One very good choice not mentioned for an off-the shelf excellent tourer is the Burley Hudson. It is stock fit, but very nicely done, and attractively priced as well.

I have not seen the examples of the English custom bikes others have mentioned, but their pricing for a touring frame seems the most reasonable among the full-custom makers, if the wait isn't a problem.
Another alternative is the CoMotion Americano, which is a stock fit made to order. It is excellent in quality and has heavy tourer components and dimensions, including a tandem-width rear dropouts to allow 145mm hubs with un-dished wheels. Timing to delivery is usually a few weeks.

The Rivendell bikes look good, and I love the Rivendell philosophy to cycling, but their prices are just too high. Mercian makes a hand-built traditionally-lugged frame that is just drop-dead beautiful for a lot less. You can get them custom made, but they also have a large in-stock inventory, too. I paid less than $1K shipped for my Mercian frame with a Campy headset and Campy dropouts, and it is much better built than a Rivendell. I've been on rides and ridden with Rivendell owners, and when we compare bikes the British Rivendell wins hands-down. I love the whole Rivendell thing and I like their bikes, but with Rivendell you're buying the name at a higher price than what it's really worth.

In case no one gets it, British Rivendell = Mercian :D

I think the point was that putting everything in your tent is not good advice in bear country, unless you want the bear in the tent with you.

Nice Surly LHT pic by the way.

A few racks:

– On the cheap end, Blackburn lowrider look alikes such as this one

– In the middle-upper scale, Old Man Mountain has a few models that either use a collar around the fork or the brake bolts.

– In terms of steel racks, the Tubus Tara, providing you add the extra adaptors.

–Bruce Gordon's Lowrider rack uses a P-clamp around the fork blade. The clamp is mostly hidden behind the frame, so you won't really see it. BTW, the bolt you see on the picture is attached to that P-clamp, not through the frame.

MarkCoatsworth:

Labrador City is indeed a concern. I would be fairly worried about riding there when the road is thawing, because it's either muddy or in coarse gravel. Many stretches are muddy even during a dry spell in Summer (at least, they were 4 years ago), so think about the thawing season!

If you can, it might even be wiser to get fully equipped for cold weather and do the gravel part sooner rather than later. Especially since they seem to have a really late/non-existent Winter this year.

The Nitto "Campee" steel front rack, sold on the Rivendell website (and probably in other places) comes with very sturdy, elegant looking mounting hardware so that you can mount it without braze-ons in the middle of your fork. There are other racks around, but this is the one that I've been using.

Thanks for pointers Mark and Michael.

I caught that too, it was funny, especially considering that Mercain has been around WAY longer then Rivendell.

Michel, thanks for the advice! Yup, my plan is to start in Labrador City in the middle of May, and start riding to Goose once the snow is low enough. I'd much rather ride through snow and cold than bugs and heat! Do you know what road conditions are like in May? As long as there isn't lots of ice and think snow, I should be okay.

As for the non-existent winter, that seems to be the case all through the east this year! Temperatures in Toronto are WAY higher than usual. It's early January, I'm riding my bicycle in a sweater with no gloves!!! How is Quebec? Is it warm there too?

I grew up with Britrish bikes (Mercian, Jack Taylor and Bob Jackson) and the way I ride is very influenced by the old British cycle touring tradition of putting a saddlebag on the back and enjoying a day out on a lugged bike. So now that I find myself in the USA I'm a fan of Riv bikes and own a Rambouillet and a Quickbeam and they are the most comfortable bikes I've ever ridden, they high handlebar positon promoted by the Rivendell bikes is the way to go for comfort.

People seem to be fixated on Rivendells as being expensive, well some are and some are mid priced. My Quickbeam cost $1400 for the entire bike, admitidly its a singlespeed (well 4 gears actually), but for such a nice lugged frame bike I think its reasonable. And Rivendell now offers the Bleriot frame for $800 which with its 650b wheels would make for a great touring bike.

Comparing Mercians with Rivendells is interesting, is the quality of the finish different, I know the lugs on a Mercian are a lot fancier and the paintwork can be very intricate, but how does the construction campare. Actually I find the finish (lugs and paintwoirk) on Mercians to be a bit over the top, not Hetchins garish, but too jus too fussy. I like the simpler lugs and paintwork on the Rivendells

I really love Mercians but they aren't the same sort of bike as a Rivendell. Their philosophy is considerably different.

I stopped by Rivendell last month and looked over their bikes and I have to tell you that "carefully spec'd" ain't the half of it. Grant must do nothing but think about every little detail on a Rivendell.

Mercian had a good design 30 years ago and they're still building it today.

BOTH bikes are excellent choices but they aren't the same sort of bike.

Not that it would make the slightest difference to me. When I get back to work I will probably buy a Mercian as the last bike I'll purchase.

Finish of the bikes is about the same. The lugwork on most Mercians isn't as fancy as the Rivendells but the Mercian Vincitore has fancy lugwork of very high character.

I WOULD NOT recommend 650B wheel bikes for touring because you simply can't get tires anywhere but from a few sources. Now you could probably carry one spare and count on overnight delivery if you used that tire up. Rivendell sells these tires and stocks them and is exceptionally cooperative with tourists.

I wasn't thinking of the avaibility of the 650b tyres, just their utility, but its a good point that they would be
hard to find compared to 26" or 700c. The lugwork complexity does depend on the particular frames you're comparing, the Quickbeam has quite simple lugs, I think what might be more of a difference is the lug lining that Mercian does. I know some people who love it and others that hate it, I'm in the hate camp, just an aethsetic thing and I know its an option.

I think the real differences between Mercian and Rivendell are the tyre clearances, Rivendell's love of the 650b tyre size for some of its bikes and Rivendell's standard headtube extension and small up slope on the top tube.
I know that you could certainly ask mercian to build a bike with an upslope and headtube extension, I just don't think their default style would be as comfortable as that of Rivendell.

Mercian are definitely the best deal on a custom frame out there though.

OK, I understand this logic because I use it all the time myself. I justify not wearing a helmet because some crashes only break leg bones. I justify not learning Spanish because some people only speak Swahili. I justify not giving up Jaegermeister because I haven't given up tequila either.

But, I suspect the real answer is that somebody designed a pretty fork and didn't want any lumps or holes spoiling the look. And it is pretty.

i just picked up the summer '06 copy of the rivendell reader at a local bike shop. the more i read about grant's little enterprise, the more i become convinced no one should deal with the guy, ever.

Rivendell 'membership', 'prebooking' for things not in the country yet, bad advice (example, his flawed and misleading, i might say ignorant, assertion loaded basket bikes handle just as good as a bike packed for touring with the weight down low) and perienally 'out of stock' items aside,

his quickbeams are made by panasonic. his bleriots and some other frames are produced in tawian.I suspect some of his rambouilets are gruppo'd overseas to ship direct to his dealers. not that theres anything wrong with that, it just isn't what a 'custom' bike builder does. those are factory produced framesets. Grant's a marketing machine with some good specs.

a company like soma sells non custom frames for 400 bucks or so, surlys even less. and soma's got lugged framesets this year as well, probably produced at the same factory grant gets his bleriots brazed at.

Sour icing on the cake - in this summer '06 reader, he berated a dissatisfied customer (anonymously) that was unhappy with their Quickbeam purchase using 3 pages of the reader, including a picture of the 'offending' frame.

he found it necessary to print his 900 word defense he was going to send the purchaser about the flaws in the frameset, but deferred to send it privately. instead, he printed it so all his members could see how highbrow, lowlife, P.O.S. or what ever Grant thinks of himself. He went on and on about the 'dust mites' in the purchasers' eyebrows!

he feared being slammed on the internet, and i am happy to oblige him.

what a piece of work that grant peterson is. My dislike for such pretence borders on odious. the guy is pathetic.

The OP probably couldn't get an Atlantis in time anyway.
Maybe he can design a great bike, but i wouldn't deal with his company if i were you.

NUN, and other Mercain owners; If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Mercain prices more in line with the Atlantis that Rivendell also sells? And if so, do any of you know how the Mercain compares with the Atlantis? If no one has compared the Altlantis then what about the Rivendell? do not put the lugs into the equation, just overall value and quality...which would you buy?

I have a trip planned for this next summer to England, and have made "paper" plans to visit the Mercain shop and have one custom built and sent home when done; this is why I asked the crazy question above. Both the Atlantis and the Mercain intrique me, while the Mercain I like better but only from the Lugs standpoint, I like their spearpoints lugs a lot. The bike will be used for touring.

Froze, I'm a Rivendell owner, not a Mercian, and I believe that if we are comparing the Atlantis and the King of Mercia the differences are pretty much summed up in a pervious post of mine

"I think the real differences between Mercian and Rivendell are the tyre clearances,.... and Rivendell's standard headtube extension and small up slope on the top tube.
I know that you could certainly ask mercian to build a bike with an upslope and headtube extension, I just don't think their default style would be as comfortable as that of Rivendell."

Mercian is a bit more influenced by racing machines and specs campy parts on most of their bikes. They go to Shimano for the touring speced bikes.

Bekologist's points about lead time and some of the marketing crap connected with Rivendell are good points, I even think the company name is pretty cheesy, but that's doesn't stop them from being great bikes that are beautifully finished and ride really well. The customer service is very good, although the website does lag behind the stock sometimes, so its best to call.

Choosing between Mercian and Rivendell you carn't go wrong, just know what you want when you go to mercian, get the geometry worked out.

I can't let this pass. Your post is asinine.

The Bleriot is the one bike made in Taiwan, in cooperation with QBP, the owner of Surly. QBP, the owners of Surly, again, are selling this bike, too. Same price. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, because Bekologist can't read. They are accused of being too expensive, so they work with a major distributor and produce an affordable 650B frameset that's lugged and looks great in the pics I've seen. BTW, the Soma lugged frame is probably at the same place as the Bleriot and the Kogswells, and at the same price, too. Are we complaining about options?

"prebooking"? Buddy, you don't seem to know much about business. This is not unusual, in fact it is quite common among smaller bike businesses to make payments on small volume special orders, or to get in line for a custom. Paying a deposit on a custom is no different.
Memberships exist with REI, Performance, Adventure Cyclist, etc. etc. Basically, it is an incentive to subscribe to their magazine, and for the price a Bicycling subscription you get FAR more interesting stuff to read.

The article you speak of about a customer's dissatisfaction handled a delicate issue delicately, and was very fair to the customer, who remained totally anonymous. Rivendell's owner has always been open about his business dealings and problems.

I will clarify my position here: I think the OP probably should get a LHT or an affordable custom in his region. If he chooses to deal with Rivendell, he will find that the staff and the owner are warm, honest people who often bend over backwards to make customers happy. That has been my experience. I took my wife there to pick a bike, and she received more help and consideration than ANY bike shop I've been to. Since Bekologist can't get his facts straight, nor does he have any personal experience with them to communicate, I don't think his comment are reliable at all. I will add that the anonymous person in the article mentioned was able to return his used bike for a full refund.

I'm not a overzealous fan, but I do not like to see any good business or person misrepresent by some yahoo. Sorry for the interruption of the thread.

hey, steel,

grant prebooks your sweaters too. its rob peter to pay paul is what that is. I don't like it.

Prebooking a 'custom' frame to be built to your specs is an entirely different animal than paying the distributor in advance so he can clear customs duty on a crate of sweaters.

If its just the bleriots that get produced in taiwan, and the rest of his off the shelf, noncustom framesets by panasonic - and toyo - in japan, i misread his confusing diatribes about the golden fleece he builds them with.

i think grant blathering on about a dissatisfied customers mites in their eyebrows shows how elevated grant thinks he is. the story of how he handled that customers return is pathetic.

that's my opinion about rivendell, and i'm sticking with it.

Riv has prettier and more intricate lugs in general. My Mercian has very plain lugwork. Mercian will however build in any lugs you like - Henry James, etcetera - and their Vincitores have fancy lugwork, but they're pricier because of it. Interestingly, if you are good at carving, you can send in your own lugs and Mercian will build them into the bike, and a customer of theirs not long ago did just that: http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/newsstory.asp?id=64

I also think the paint jobs are nicer on Rivendells than Mercians, personally, although you get what they give you. My Mercian has slightly sloppy paintwork, to be honest, although it still looks beautiful and was done with the exact colors and scheme that I asked for. The lug lining you can tell was done free-hand with a paint pen, and whoever did it wasn't the most exacting artist - it's more like they hired a cake painter to do it. C'est la vie. It's still a show-stopper of a bike, and I constantly get asked about it. Riv has the benefit of Joe Bell though, and even the bikes he didn't paint have a cleaner paint job than any Mercian I've ever come across.

The Mercians are considerably cheaper than the Atlantis, though the prices range depending on what you get done with them. Since it is a custom, though, I can see no reason for getting an Atlantis or any other production bike instead of a Bob Jackson or Mercian if you're intending on spending a grand large, especially considering the fact that you could have them completely imitate the Atlantis in every detail if you wanted, and still get it cheaper.

I really don't know what to say about comparative build quality - a lot of that is stuff that you can't see. As Grant Peterson pointed out, no person can judge how well a braze was done by looking through the paint job. I'll just say that my bike is stable, fits well, it can certainly haul a load, it handles well, and it's what I asked for.

A more intricate paint job will make a Mercian more expensive than the very cheap base price, as will adding braze-ons for racks, etcetera. As far as clearances go, on mine I had them crank out the stays to accept very wide tires and a Rohloff hub at 135 mm, so that's no problem for them at all. One thing I really liked about them was that they had some spare Reynolds 531 ST (special tourist) tubing lying around and built my whole frame out of it when I asked them to. They'll do anything you want them to, which is the point of a custom. You are no more tied down to the base model than you are tied down to toppings when ordering a pizza, unless you order one "off the shelf" from them, which in my opinion would be a stupid thing to spend a grand on and would completely defeat the purpose of going to a "bespoke" bike manufacturer - it would be like going to a master tailor on Savile Row and just buying some pants off the floor from them.

I didn't have them build an oversized head tube, but you can imitate anything Rivendell (or any other marque) does if you like it so much.

This guy had his built with a "Riv-style" oversized headtube and wide stays, for example: http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/e/laumb.htm

The only thing about ordering a custom is that you'd best be sure about exactly what you want done with it, as nun so correctly pointed out. The stock chainstays will only come out to 44 cm, for example, and if you intend on putting big panniers on it, you'll want longer ones.