Bekeologist, it sounds as though you might be the mystery customer Grant wrote about in his reader????
Seriously ....all that pent up resentment oozing out is bad for the soul!

The solution to not liking someones business philosophy is to not do business with them.
I have been a Rivendell customer these past couple of years (havn't purchased a bike yet) and I will probably have to purchase a LHT but I do think a semi production Riv bike to be worth the money and certainly their full custom frame is. Because of a lack of available low cost lugged frames I have been forced to restore two mid late 70's to early 80's "touring" frames and I credit Grant with confirming what I already knew from experience riding back in my twenties and that is: Wool is great, lugged steel frames are nice to look at and when made right are durable, more upright bars are comfy, especially now that I am over 40, brooks saddles are what keep me off my recumbent half the time, wider tires are less prone to flatting and soften the bumps, long wheelbase bikes with good clearances make good sense for 95% of the riders here in the N.W., Bags are nice to carry stuff on a bike instead of leaving it home, riding without clips is possible and you don't go any slower (pg.118 Bicycling Medicine by Arnie Baker M.D. explains that one) and finally you don't need special "bike" clothing to ride a bike, in fact you don't even need special clothing to be comfortable. I've tried all the new gimicks and some newer style bikes and have returned to what I know works, is practical, durable and sensible. If Grant made/makes mistakes
then it only proves he is a human being.

I take all my rants back. I 've found grant paints his frames with pixie dust. he invented the touring bike, saved brooks saddles from ruin. heck, he even invented SHEEP. He's in the running for a knighthood and the order of the royal garter....

I've seen small businesses take advantage of their customers money, and i don't like it one bit.

I worked for a respected outdoor gear supplier - Marmot Mountain Works,(not Marmot the manufacturer) shops in California and Washington. the owner had us take money from the customer for special orders from suppliers that had Marmot on credit hold, and not think twice about making customers wait until he paid his overdue invoices off.

I had to send climbers up to Denali and the Himal, missing crucial elements of gear, because of undelivered special orders, even though the owner was on credit hold and couldn't get the goods delivered for 2-3 months. I'd recommend y'all don't order from Marmot if you expect things in a timely manner.


all you suckas that are in awe if grant, you want to pay him to wait for a production frame- or sweater- likely not clearing customs until he scrapes enough of your lucre togther, go right ahead.

Kris, I do tour in the winter up here. on a long haul trucker. or a trek 520.

oh, grant invented the long haul trucker. or was it the internet?

he's a sucessful pimp of overpriced production bikes with parveneu character and dubious pedigree.

made in taiwan (or China) Rivendell head badged "bermuda triangle" 700c touring bikes, available soon via QBP. Maybe grant will use Kenesis like all the rest of the bike companies out there, they make fine bikes.

I'd buy one.

i still suggest to the OP....NO, no production bike is worth money up front and a four month wait, even if it is painted with pixie dust by california leprechauns.

having been spurred on by picking up the summer 06 riv reader just yesterday, and reading his slam and self rightous defense of a frame a customer was unhappy with, berating the customer (anonymously) and their dust mites, hereby ends my rant for this round of riv threads.

I hear they're painted with pixie dust, thaz what makes them so special.

Please say something about the hatchets before you leave.

Gee wizz dude, lighten up............I don't care if Grant has to take deposits on stuff in order to get enough $$$ to make a big order. This is something he has written about more than once and I think he regrets having to run his business on such a shoestring. Large corporations with huge capital to work with have a much easier time keeping up on inventory etc. If you remember correctly the frame customer (actually a full bike customer) didn't like some minor flaw in the brazing of the seat lug area and wasn't overly fond of the paint job on the Panasonic built bike. I believe Grant refunded his money and paid his corporation for the bike and kept it for his personal bike. He rides it to this day as far as I know and hasn't had a structural problem yet. I think Grant was trying to explain that the "problem" really wasn't a structural one that would compromise the strength of the frame but more of an esthetic one. The "dust mite" comment refered to the brazing having possibly been overheated as judged by the customers possible engineer co-worker. I believe Grant was simply making the claim that, like dust mites on our eyelids (while scary under a microscope) are not dangerous, in the same way that the braze joints while not perfect to look at, were probably not dangerous. He personally rides this same bike today with no problems.

Its really too bad that you have had the unfortunate experience to have seen other companies undesirable business practices but I am sure that in all my reading about the Rivendell company I have always sensed complete honesty about how and why they do things the way they do. Is it unethical to take money and wait to order when you have enough cash to place a large order? I don't think so, especially if you tell your customers that you may be doing just that! I think Grant deserves alot of applause for his quirky writing and viewpoints regarding cycling. I thoroughly enjoy reading the Riv reader and think the Rivendell bikes are very nice and I wish I could own one now. Are there better made bikes? Not really! More artsy? Probably! More costly? Definately! Are there better values as far as performance? Yes! ( LHT comes to mind) "To each his own", is my point of view. Its a big world out there and Grant is free to do business as he sees fit or as may be required for pure survival. When you have a dozen employees and rent that is three or more times the average house payment, plus huge cash outlays for inventory that may not sell within the fiscal year, not to mention the state and federal taxes and a host of other concerns, then you might better understand that he/Grant is doing the best he/Grant can!!!

I was interested/curious about the Rambouillet, too...but they wouldn't be getting the new green frames in until mid-year (cue Bekologist) and the blue ones don't float my boat. I had a green Quickbeam (is yours green or orange) and loved the ride quality, but I've had surgery twice on both knees, and they complained about the single speed aspect, so I sold it earlier in the year. I did give Riv some business, though...ordering the Nitto Soba bar, seatpost, stem, and the 27mm Roly Poly tires from them. It'll be a Waterdell! Um, Rivenford?

I think mine has an anticipated due date of January 30th! Looks like the race is on!

duder! welcome back!! i used to fly fish quite a bit and then i got into cyclin' bigtime. i oughta fish some more!!

Orange QB and Blue Ram. They ride very similarly ie fantastic. The QB is really my favourite bike, I don't hammer
and ride 40/16 most of the time, no fixed, just freewheel. Its actually a really nice touring bike if the hills aren't too steep and you keep the load light. I do credit card touring on it and I actually find that I feel better after a day on the QB than on a bike with more gears as keeping the gearing at 66" regulates my speed and I don't try to hammer on the flats, just roll along at 14 to 15 mph.

Amen. No I am not in awe of the man but he certainly has been a force in the industry and can be credited with getting people out of their spandex and sitting more upright among other things. The fact that such a small business generates this much discussion, and anger, speaks for itself.

"You are not going to be doing the fair weather, smooth road, close to civilization sort of touring. Almost any equipment holds up under those conditions and a bike store or help is a reasonable possibility."

I don't know about that, over the 12000 miles, or whatever, probably half of it is real smooth running, not to say 26s aren't good for that also.

"Hey PeterPan, I checked out those nice-looking Urbanite bikes on their website. Cheaper than Riv even before the loony conversion, but some of the same ideas, seems like."

To be honest I went there looking for a Surly LHT which they also carry, though not much stock. But all I could get at the time was the Urbanite. It is designed around the pre MTB frame tubing sizes some of us like, and it has a wonderful ride. I am on the Clyde side, so I thought it might not work for me with 40-60 pounds on the bike, and my 220. Basically no problem but then I don't run at 50 MPH down mountains.... Aesthetically a lot of people comented favourably. Probably partly my fenders, but the green paint is nice enough, and nobody seems to miss the lugs or logos. It's a TIG welded bike, as you know, so it doesn't have the senseless bling of lugs, which just aren't required on this kind of tubing, though they would certainly be beautiful if executed properly. I'm real happy.

When I took off on my first tour on this bike I still wanted the LHT, and said to myself that if I still enjoyed this activity post a leg injury I had suffered, I would get myself the LHT at the end of the trip, and given it is often only 150, I would try out the Nashbar frame also. I thought it would be fun to compare all the stock frames. However, about the only thing wrong with the Urbanite were a few fit tweaks I would make so I decided to make my own frame at some point rather than carry on with the stock stuff. Not to say that will be an uptick in results either.

And you've got the unmitigrated gall to criticize the way someone else does business?

I'll criticize any one I darn well please, thank you very much. HOWEVER,

I would like to apologize to Grant P. in this thread for thrashing his business. In retrospect, my dislike for his business practices IS unfair. Thanks to all who repeatedly pointed it out to me while I was too dumb to listen. My apologies.

For those that choose to be seduced, I hear the sirens song, and they exist beyond the Riv.

Grant is a great marketeer and self promoter, nothing wrong with that - I had a friend wait over 2 years for custom a Rivendell and he loves it. He prepaid no less and never considered cancelling his order. Recently I read an articel which I can't find at the moment that started off by saying Grant had taken a business that delivered either 1000 or 3000 bikes and has established into a 60 million dollars business. It went on to talk about the Rivendell mystic that drove the sale of cotton panniers, special lubricatants and bees wax. Overall I think Grant is good for the bike business and not just his own - he promotes touring - and his company is not really into racing. The average demographics of his customer - is a 40 plus male with more than an average income.

Are his bikes the end all - they are nice, but there is better. Will owning one make you ride more - maybe if you really proud of your steed. I personally own several nice touring bikes and none of them are Rivendells presently. Will I own one in the future, maybe because I am a a 50 something male with a better than average income who is in love with fine touring bikes.

Hey Bek - I have alway appreciated your opinions - as a fellow Seattle resident this weather is really getting me down, I think I'll have to do another bike build or I'll go crazy!! Mike

60 million, that would be like 40 000 frames a year!!!

can ya read the rant on the rivendell site? i can't seem to find it.

I know what article you are talking about. It was on some site where they were using Rivendell as a business case study. Where Grant using his Reader created a demand for his product and it now took two years to get a custom frame.

I believe your stats are off though. I think it is more like from 100 frames to a few thousand per year and $6 million in sales (probably less). It looks as though that article has been taken off as I can no longer find it either.

Believe me, I'm really surprised that Grant can live in Walnut Creek. While that's not a particularly upscale city, houses there still run about 800K and Rivendell probably barely makes his house payments.

I've worked in businesses before that had large grosses and very small nets like that sort of business and it's a continual headache and getting ulsers is common.

Bek, I had to fact check your claim that Grant invented sheep. It turns out that sheep were actually invented by Dick Cheney. Wyoming was a lonely place.

Your confusion may come from the fact that Grant did in fact invent wool, wool gathering, and was the inspiration for the expression "pulling the wool over one's eyes." He also invented the internets.


I wonder if the complete LHT will take away sales from the Atlantis.

This totally made my day.

"This is absolutely the ultimate stocking stuffer. The head goes down, into the foot area."

OK, that's relentless genius at work there...

On the other hand, people who buy 300 dollar chisels (per chisel), are happy withe GB hatchet as a woodworking tool. It's the... no wait a minute, until frame builders start making their own tubes from scratch, there really isn't a comparison.

Rivendell, LHT, Trek 520... ever consider a rocky mountain sherpa? Great steel frame - Reynolds 853. I'm an owner of a rocky mountain sherpa and I'm extremely happy with it. My riding thus far has been on paved roads thus far and so I'm OK (in fact prefer 28mm 700c) tires. Didn't the OP mention that 10,000 of the kilometers of his tour were on paved roads... and 2,000 on gravel? Rocky Mountain is known for it's quality mountain bikes and the dealer said he wouldn't hesitate for one second to take the sherpa 30 off road or on gravel or single track. I'm not sure how wide of a tire the fork will take, however, the stock rim is a Mavic A319 and will take up to a 50mm tire.

And the OP, if I'm not mistaken, is Canadian... Rocky Mountain bicycles is a Canadian company!

check them out at www.bikes.com

It's not a Rivendell... but it's still a helluva bike!

I don't understand the Riv hate. Its not like Rivendell is the walmart of bicycles, pushing the industry in an unsavoury direction.

I am a bit puzzled by some of their Quixotic business practices, but that is the luxury of being a small single proprietorship, you can run it any way you want. Its also part of their charm. Its cool to see a business pushing things like 650B wheel and wool clothing. It makes the whole bicycle culture richer.

I like picking up the Reader and reading about horseshoes and manual typewriters. It obviously can't help them sell bikes, they write about things s like that out of interest.

I agree with their core values, like steel frames, and non-plastic clothing.

The bicycle industry is diverse and you can get similar products cheaper from other vendors like surly and urbane, but riv helps create the demand for such products.

I agree they are expensive "boutique" bikes, but nobody is forcing anybody to buy them.

I own a GB hatchet that I bought from Lee Valley. Its great for splitting kindling. GB also sell a double headed throwing axe-it looks like something out of The Lord of the Rings. I wonder who buys them?

Thanks for pointing that out. After a paragraph of ranting a la Bek...my eyes glaze over.

I may buy a Rivendell just to piss him off

It's funny, I used to be a backpacker, and had a love/hate thing going with
the somewhat snobby premium brands. I guess irony ain't dead...

Grant has seriously tapped into the Small is Beautiful crowd. I am not at all sure how much actual riding a lot of them do; but at least they are on nice bikes when they go. My experience with this is quite limited, there is only one Rivendell
rider in the area; you only see him once or twice a year. His bike is always spotless, but the giveaway was the day I saw it at the bike shop. No wear on the tires...

I am still looking for a tire that will last a season.

Oh well...

Hey Bek! I got my wife a Rivendell Bleriot for Xmas! It's at the shop waiting
for rims to show up so we can turn it into a bike. I am pretty proud about the whole thing. I finally found a nice frame that my wife liked the looks of. That only took several years....

I spent the winter scoring parts. Got some NOS XTR hubs cheap $150 for both, some R600 brifters off ebay. A bike shop had a demo bike fall, the end caps got scraped a bit, but functionally they are basically new. I keep meaning to see if I can get new caps. I had a very cool titanium bottom bracket in the cellar. I had been hoping for years to find a place to put it. Now my wife's Rivendell has an Ultimax Ti BB. The tires I got from Vintage Bike Quarterly.

Hope she likes it once it's done.

Toute Terrain at Peter White Cycles and Thorn at SJS are the best expedition frames that you can buy. These frames are built specifically for expedition touring.

I have a Thorn Raven Nomad, I love the rohloff hub. Its a great bike.

Why do I keep picking my Atlantis when I want to go for a ride?