I have been watching the BG "discussion" for some time and let me start by saying that you get what you pay for. there really is no point in comparing a BLT?? with a RNR or RNR-EX. They are two different bicycles!!

About 3 years ago I wanted an -EX type of bicycle but could not really afford the USD price differential so I found a fellow in Canada who is a custom bike maker bike like BG is. Discussion and discussion. He built my bike and wheels (48 spoke PW hubs on 26" sun rhyno-lite rims) and used S&S connectors on a lugged brazed frame. The thing weighs 40 pounds!!

I suspect that BG would do the same if you spent enough time talking with him and listening to his opinions (based on his success/failure experience). The customer is NOT always right but the customer pays for what they "want" - and get.

Sometimes the customer does NOT realize that they are ordering (and paying for) "crap", when with more discussion and a bit more planning and a FEW more $$ they will get a really superior product... Then of course you must define "crap".

My bicycle (built by Arvon Stacey) has stood the test of time. Components (Shumano) have failed - and sometimes catastrophically :-( Arvon's wheels and frame have NOT.

I suggest that comparing a RNR and a BLT is like comparing a Brompton and a Raleigh 20: both will get you there safely. Both have their quirks. BUT the former is certainly more sophisticated than the latter... Make no mistake about it: both should get you from A to B safely. But....

You get what you pay for. Functionality is not a part of THAT discussion :-)

I have not purchased a bike from Bruce, but I have contacted him out of the blue to ask his opinion on some things related to touring bikes and it certainly did not represent a penny in his pocket. I found Bruce to be easy to talk to and a gentleman. We communicated after that a few times via email. I am sure that Bruce is no less opinionated than Greg or Peter White for example. I have also found Greg to be great to talk to and ordered a number of new components for my Randonee. Greg was helpful and pleasant to deal with.

Don't take incidental or hearsay evidence and/or opinion from others about Bruce's, Greg or anyone elses demeanor, but check it out for yourself. I do not like Peter White's personal political views and belief system, but believe that he is one heck of a wheel builder and very knowledgeable. Ask the questions you have and take the time to "Actively Listen". I for one would love to have a Bruce Gordon Bike 26" Wheel with his racks and panniers. He does beautiful work. I also would love to have a Rivendel Atlantis and unfortunately the increase in prices on Riv are unfortunately putting them up in the stratosphere of other high end touring bikes and out of the reach of the likes of me.

If you can afford a $ 3,000 touring kit then by all means take the time to talk to those that are the most knowledgeable about their products and passionate about quality and design. There are some extremely experienced riders here, but I don't believe you can even get close to the quality of information and direction here that you will from Bruce, Greg, or Peter. It won't come from Trek either.

Just my thoughts! I have to say I envy your opportunity! Let us know your decision and post some pic's.

This isn't a slam against BG or anyone in particular, but I've been perusing some of the high end bike builders' websites lately and I am quite surprised at some of the choices they are making for touring bikes. My sense is that many of these folks are great craftsman and know how to weld bikes and probably are very good at designing bikes for the types of riding they actually have done lots of....BUT...it's pretty clear many of them are not experienced cycle tourists and I wouldn't necessarily trust the judgment of one of these builders when it comes to the design/spec of a touring bike...unless....in your discussions with them they do loads of touring themselves.

I would suggest a better resource is to read the travel journals of the serous bike tourists who do the type of touring you are interested in and see what bikes/gear they are using and what they say about them. You can email many of them and ask questions/get feedback on what you are looking for in a touring bike. You can then use this information to work with a custom builder and get the bike you want and that will serve you well down the road or perhaps you'll find that a low cost production bike [LHT, 520, etc..] suits your needs.

As an example if you spend some time on the Thorn website you'll see that the principals involved in that company have extensive touring experience and that they test their designs/products to see what works/fails in the real world - not just based on experience 20 years previous or based on theory. Another good sign is that bike touring is a major focus of their business - rather than a small niche for which they build the occasional frame.

"I wouldn't necessarily trust the judgment of one of these builders when it comes to the design/spec of a touring bike...unless....in your discussions with them they do loads of touring themselves.

I would suggest a better resource is to read the travel journals of the serous bike tourists who do the type of touring you are interested in and see what bikes/gear they are using and what they say about them."

The reality is that a lot of bike frame builders aren't at a place where they can specialize in one type of bike. It's unlikely that they are equaly expert in all types, and touring bikes are a fairly nebulous catagory in any case. Thorn gets a lot of favourable press, but I don't see them as ideal for the kind of touring a lot of NAers do that involves shoulder riding on trans-continental HWYs, or even in state trips of a similar kind, rail trail riding, etc... They would certainly make the trip, but that isn't their thing either.

I don't have any more trust in the experiences of seriously budget limited world travelers who often have ridiculous equipment choices. Even thousands of miles of personal travel may just confirm prejudices. My eforts in custom bike making are to bring into being bikes that do not have any of the flaws I have experienced. Every person's experience is likely different. I remember once refering to a stay failure in a Rohloff thread, and there were angry responses. It happened to one world tourer with a lot of miles under his belt, but didn't sound right to many other users. At least people in the industry hear tons of stories and fix all sorts of problems.

This is an unfortunate digresion in a BG thread, who seems to have loyal followers and very practical gear. But a lot of extravagant touring bikes are retro styled, as you point out, and have more to do with satisfying the urealized chidhood dreams of retirees than making serious touring bikes.

Speaking of serious touring bikes, still love to see pictures of TMAC-100s bike!!

If your problem about BG was over putting a stem setup like that on that kind of fine touring bike, I don't blame BG - and even less if it was weeks or months after the purchase. You could just as easily have butchered a hybrid like that for the same effect and you wouldn't have needed a real touring bike in the first place.

The minute I'm hearing the line about not wanting to ride hunched over, I know I'm dealing with a beginner or someone who doesn't know what he/she is talking about. Drop bars on touring bikes are not about being "hunched over", and on a touring bike, you don't have to be. The bars are there for the hand/body positions, not for any perceived raciness. You no more have to be hunched over when riding on the tops, ramps or hoods than you would riding on any kind of silly contraption stem/bar setup, any kind of hybrid, or any kind of comfort bike. But of course, there are some advantages to not riding too upright which are undeniable unless you've never really tried it enough to get used to it. And personally, I wouldn't want to tour anywhere without drops because there's bound to be some stiff winds sometime, plus they offer better control on descents. But whatever way you want to ride, the often-used "not hunched up" reason for not using dropbars on a touring bike doesn't hold water.

Hey, I have strong opinions about these things, but I'm not in any kind of bike business. But I do think it's extremely bad form to be badmouthing the personality of specific named merchants or builders on a bike forums. A few weeks ago it was Peter White, and on almost any given day, it's Grant Peterson, and now it's Bruce Gordon. When I got my custom sport tourer, I chose the group and that sort of thing, but I didn't nor would I expect to tell the builder how to build the frame. I'm no framebuilder. Way too many people are total self-centered a-holes to be attaching any value to negative comments about personality on public forums.

[QUOTE=AlanK;349257]Hey touring zealots,

My wife and I just bought 2 Rock & Road bikes from Bruce. I was very impressed with the amount of time
he spent with me on the phone getting the fit right and asking questions. The quality is the BEST! We wanted the most reliable bikes we could get. He wants everything to be right.

Go for it!

The part I don't agree with is you can be highly skilled and building some types of bikes bikes without necessarily understanding or designing a specific kind of bike well. Being a frame builder doesn't mean you'll design and build awesome touring bikes. Perhaps you really get road racing bikes or cyclocross bikes, but you may not understand what makes a great expedition touring frame. Skill at welding bikes does not innately give you an understanding of all the different varieties of bikes a frame builder might build.

If the specific builder in question has toured all his life [in particular the kind of bike touring you do] and continues to do so - sure I'd trust their judgment for the most part. Although if I am dropping several thousand $$$ on a frame I won't feel any hesitation to request changes based on my preferences and experience..after all I have to ride the bike - not the builder.

Part of why people go to BG is to take advantage of his expertise. If he doesn't want his name on some customer's wacky request, he has the right to refuse to do it. Bicycles are advertisement for the brand. It's to BG's advantage for people to have a consistent understanding of what a BG bicycle is. Few people will understand that some custom request that doesn't work is the customer's fault. People will tend to fault the manufacturer. There are certainly enough other places that a customer can get exactly what he wants.

This post "hits the nail on the head" In 32 years of building Touring bikes and equipment I can think of 3 to 5 unhappy customers. They have been unhappy because I would not do something that I felt was wrong. Unfortunately two have their own websites where they have taken it upon themselves to "air our dirty laundry". Anyone who has any questions or problems with my customer service or products should give me a call - I guarantee that Bruce Gordon will talk to them and try to make things right. How can I guarantee that Bruce Gordon will talk to them??? Because I am the only person at Bruce Gordon Cycles!!
Not entirely true - there is a Cat named Linus here, but he is not allowed to answer the phone because he has less People Skills than I do!!
Any questions, complaints, or comments - give me a call at (707) 762-5601
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
www.bgcycles.com

Looked at positvely, if I have the correct wesites, one of them has toned it down to be pretty neutral, and the other had to use a consultant to help him choose a bike, so who is going to listen to him!

I think sometimes websited people, some of them "limited purpose people" in their own right, think they can say whatever they want to about an industry icon. They don't tend to consider:

- Some people own the same gear and think they are idiots for not liking it as well as they do;

- Some people own the same gear and don't like it being dised, destroying their pride of ownership and resale value;

- Some people aspire to own the gear... and so forth.

It's not as private or as safe to be the ivory tower reviewer as they think. At the end of the day people who can't make good stuff work are useless to the rest of us.

Bruce Gordon appears to be coming out with a new model that should be price a lot more affordably.

Of course the front page of the Heron website talks about how they have stopped production of the Heron frames.

I was very nearly having BG build me a bike (still aspire to—one of his customs would tickle me pink), but Bilenky was closer to me. I wanted a bike that I could tour on fully loaded and then take the racks off and have a bike that could ride with the rest of the best. I got it. There were some compromises involved. Most notably, the tubing. The bike is light—about 21-22 lbs. without anything on it. Handles and rides great. I spend 95% or more of my time riding without gear so it is essentially a road bike with a bit of touring geometry. It's only flaw is it's tendency to flex/wiggle when going downhill, fully loaded at over 35 mph (that and it really doesn't like over 45 lbs. of weight strapped on it—that was easy to remedy as I don't like that kind of weight either) and that is only induced when the road is rough and/or I have severe crosswinds. And then, I learned how to ride it.

Bottom line: If you have custom money, decide exactly what you want, decide who you want to build it and then start discussing it with them. It appears to me in hind-sight, that Bilenky knew more about what I wanted than I did. A beautiful (to me) custom, multi-purpose bike that cost less than the high-end stock offerings.

It also appears to me that BG has probably forgotten more about bikes than I'll ever know. If I lived on the left coast—he'd have gotten the job. As it is, Stephen Bilenky builds a great bicycle and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I'm very happy. And very biased.

Love this bike.

Really nice bike, is it based on the Tourlite, love that Carmina crank and the paint scheme. The specs of your bike sound a lot like my Riv Rambouillet which is the closest to the do everything bike that I've found. It's fast enough to keep up on fast club rides (it's me that limits the speed), I do Centuries and go touring on it because it's geometry is relaxed enough to be comfortable and take a load and with 32mm tyres it even does well off road.

Mr. Gordon invites comments from those who've toured on one of his bikes, so here goes:

I've a Rock n' Road. It's pretty wonderful 15 years after I bought it (used, at a swap meet), and has rolled across six continents. But when the down tube developed a crack after 5 years, I called Mr. Gordon and asked if there were any way he would fix it - for free. I was working for the Discovery Channel at the time, delivering dispatches from the road, and the bike was mentioned prominently in the 'gear' section of my online journal. Did Mr. Gordon see this as an opportunity to advance his Public Relations? No. He seemed annoyed that I implied that he should repair the frame at no cost to me. As for the publicity he might have gained, I got the impression that he was content with keeping his one-man operation a one-man operation.

Which is understandable. As for his phone manners, some people I love aren't much better.

So there you go: a nice bike, from a guy who doesn't like to chat. I had Tucson's Andy Gilmour put in a new down tube, and the Rock n Road is still my daily ride.

Hi Jim. You've used the bike for 15, apparently well-used years. So, I would think the crack is more a result of heavy use, rather than a defect in manufacturing. If that's the case, then I don't think it's Bruce Gordon's responsibility to fix your frame for free. As for the PR stuff, if you are trying to barter your service for his, then it's his right to turn down the offer. This is just my two cents as an outside perspective, and no offense intended. Also, I don't know Bruce or own any of his products.

+1

I would think that any retailer or manufacturer of outdoor/camping/mountaineering/bicycling gear gets these requests on a daily basis.

I would think it would be surprising, however, for someone to get a business proposition on the phone and then find the proposed deal publicized on the Internet. You offered BG a business deal. He turned you down. Then it shows up on the web as a comment on his phone manners some years later?

Is it really appropriate to offer someone a business deal in a (presumably private) conversation and then publicize the rejection of that deal as a comment on their consumer-facing customer service and/or bicycles?

I'd like a chance to respond to Bungeboy's question of whether or not my post is appropriate. I'd
believed that was the point of this thread, which began with Alan K asking: "So basically I'm just looking for feedback about Bruce Gordon's bicycles and dealing with the man himself. I'd like to hear both positive and negative feedback. All coherent input is appreciated."

But now I wish I hadn't commented on Mr. Gordon. Was I too hard on him? I hope not. I enthused over the bike, and said his unwillingness to fix my cracked tube was understandable. Was it inappropriate to tell other forum members? This is what worries me. I don't know. If I was dealing with Mr. X of Trek customer relations, and I'd received the same response, would anyone care if I posted the anecdote? Or is it because Mr. Gordon is a hard-working individualist who's devoted his life to building nice bikes, and my story may not help his business? I think the latter is the case, despite my pleasure with the bike.

One more thing: I'd thought of the bike forum as members answering other member's questions. I hadn't really considered the impact of what Mr. Bungeboy describes as a business deal "publicized on the Internet." Now I do, and I regret it. Sorry.

Yours,

Hi Jim. I don't think you should sweat it, either--your comments didn't seem to come from ill-will, more from frustration, which is understandable. Also, my apologies about misreading the fact that the crack developed after 5 years of your ownership (although it was purchased used).

I thought I'd reply one more time at the risk of ticking anyone else off.

If you read the original post about my customer service - the poster said he bought the bike USED AT A SWAP MEET, then rode it for 5 years of heavy touring before the problem.
My policy is this and has been this for the last 33 years - I warrantee my products for the life of the ORIGINAL OWNER. That does not include accident, abuse, rust, etc.
Who knows how many people have owned it before and the use it had had. I think my "Original Owner"
clause is pretty standard among small builders.
I urge anyone thinking of purchasing my products to call for themself and make up their own mind as to my experience and customer service.
Regards,
Bruce Gordon
www.bgcycles.com

All,
While I haven't bought a BG bike (I ride a Riv Bleriot), I do have one of Bruce's taillights and it is of impeccable quality. I can tell from experience that Bruce is a pleasure to deal with on the phone and even when I stopped into his shop one day just by accident when I was checking out the kayak shop next door.

I think all small, high quality builders have a certain idea of what they want to build and that's the way they will push a customer. I'm going to guess Bruce knows what he is talking about at this point... Now, if I'd been riding a touring bike for the last 20 years and been around the globe a couple of times, I think Bruce may value my opinion a little more. BTW- if you think Bruce is a little grouchy or eccentric, have you talked to Grant Peterson? I don't think anyone can go wrong with any of Bruce's or Grant's bikes.
Chris

Ok. Not much of a typist but I felt I needed to post on my experience with the Bruce Gordon Rock n' Road that I picked up on ebay along with some Robert Beckman panniers for a steal of a price ($1400) . The panniers were unused and were signed and dated 1996. The bike supposedly had only about 800 miles on it and looked it. Prolly a 1995 or 96 version also. (see thumbnail below taken at Sedalia)
After trying to get used to the low bars I simply put a stem riser on and everything clicked. One could say, well the frame was to small for me. (There is a lot of seatpost showing) I thought this at first also (a 47 frame I think) but I liked the standover height. It was perfect and gave me a bit of clearance flatfooted and confidence in the knowledge I could jump onto the ground while still astraddle the bar in emergencies. Anyway, I eventually lost 40 pounds and that combined with the riser made this bike perfect for me. I can get down comfortably now (I am 55 y.o. btw) when I have a headwind and ride as long as I want. The weight distribution between butt ,hands, and feet are right now too.
Ive been riding my bike for exercise. I'm a firefighter/paramedic and needed to get back in shape to finish my last two years of a thirty year career. I have a minimum route of 13 miles I do as often as I can and do a lot of day rides around the county. I recently did the Katy trail, riding the train with the bike to Sedalia Missouri from St.Louis and then back to where I'd parked my car in the station lot. 225 miles or so total counting the ride from the Paige bridge thru eastern burbs back to the train station. Spent four nights along the way camping. Carried everything with me. Met some great freindly people and had a ball. I know I overpacked but my trusty steed carried it all plus me without a whimper. Used 38 tires but still had five flats. Glass cut my rear tire on the Boonville bridge after which I used the dollar bill trick as a boot and that got me the 18 miles or so too Rocheport where I had new tires put on. Still had two more flats after that tho (darn thorns a plenty on that trail, lol)
The trail was easy going and in good shape. There was some killer hills at the place I camped near Augusta. The worst hills were in the east St.Louis burbs. Especially right after I got out of the city park. Steep lotsa traffic and no shoulders. After that it wasnt too bad. Got up to about 40 m.p.h. on the downhill after that in heavy traffic. Started to shimmy slightly but stopped when I quit pedaling. My panniers were kinda unbalanced by now after eating most of the food and adding a half gallon jug of beer from a brewery on the way. (lol)I even got to test the Rn'R off road fully loaded. I came to a spot where they were rebuilding an overpass and adding exit ramps to interstate 64 I think. It was late afternoon on my last day and if I went around this construction site it was going to add a lot of time. I was tired, hungry, and as I looked out across the site I could see where I might be able to thread my way through the dirt and equipment to the other side. I went for it. Going down into it wasnt bad. Coming up the other side I put her in granny and gave it hell. What a ride! Was a blast! Lotsa loose dirt and rocky gravel. Finally popped up on the other side and looked back with great satisfaction thru where I`d come. Didnt stop once. You can imagine the amount of quick front wheel corrections I was making due to low speed and the terrain. The bike and panniers performed flawlessly!
This was my first overnight trip on my bike and I could go on and on, but the point is Bruce Gordons Rock n' Road is a confidence inspiring bicycle. Its just solid. The racks held the panniers well and went on and off so easy. This was very appreciated given the five flats!! I had the wheels checked for spoke tension before leaving and during the trip, they needed nothing. And still dont. All Ive added since purchasing the bike is a brooks saddle (B67 I think),pedals, and the stem riser. Which by the way was more solid than I`d expected.
Anyway, Bruce you do fine work. I'm sure your bikes will outlast most of us! Thank Man... .. .

Amazing how old threads materialize from some tech dungeon only to be taken as recent and up to date. Not that all threads have the least bit of good information, but occasionally one is fortunate!

I've chatted with Bruce and would love to be able to afford one of his bikes. From my experience and past communications with Bruce he is straight forward, easy to talk to and actually quite friendly guy. I don't spend much time at BF anymore due to the excessive BS, much of it denigrating others anonymously and without merit.

So, Bruce - Merry Christmas and I'm still saving. With this economy it will take me quite a bit longer.

Fred Thomas
PS: Thanks for your time and patience in the past. There wasn't a penny in it for you and I enjoyed our conversations quite a bit. A guy I wouldn't mind hanging out with and I'm a picky old fart!

[QUOTE=
I've chatted with Bruce and would love to be able to afford one of his bikes. From my experience and past communications with Bruce he is straight forward, easy to talk to and actually quite friendly guy.

So, Bruce - Merry Christmas and I'm still saving. With this economy it will take me quite a bit longer.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your kind words.
I know the economy is hitting everyone hard.
In an effort to make a more affordable "Loaded Touring Bike" I am having a less expensive BLT made in Taiwan. It is the same tubing, and spec's as the California made Rock'n Road Tour.
The first sample looked great - I'm waiting for a revised sample before the first batch comes.
Check them out if you like at - https://bgcycles.com/tblt.html.
Any questions - feel free to give me a call.

Regards,
Bruce Gordon

P.S. I'm still making frames and all the racks in my shop in California

Hi, Re: BG bikes made in Taiwan 12/8/08
I'm an American expat living in Taiwan. Home town is SF, CA.
Is there any way I can get a deal on a BG Taiwan bike and pick it up in Taiwan? I'm in Ping Chen City Taoyuan Hsien.