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Rivendell to discontinue the Atlantis?

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Rivendell to discontinue the Atlantis?

Old 12-12-08, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
Did you actually look at that site? They state that most 650b tire are produced for the US market. Just because there is an enthusiast website doesn't mean that the tires are actually widely available. I kust searched four of the biggest European online bike shops and none had 650b tires. I did find a whopping TWO tires in the UK, one NOS for $65 a tire.......


Take a look at the site you linked to..... http://www.confreriedes650.org/eng-tires.php
Of course I looked at it; it's linked from my site. The Confrerie were one of the organizations responsible for lobbying industry to reprise the old French standard.

Those of us running 650b know where to get what we need. The best tyres are made in Japan, where 650b is huge. Rims are Australian made. On edit: We now have available the new Grand Bois rim (also Japanese).

Last edited by Randochap; 12-12-08 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 12-12-08, 01:10 PM
  #77  
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I'm not a Bleriot hater and don't criticize Rivendell for introducing it. What ticks me off is that they quit making the Rambo at the same time, so cyclists were forced to go the 650b route if they wanted a Rivendell. Although 650b wheels might be the greatest thing since sliced bread, they are not for everyone. In my case, I have 3 other road bikes with 700c wheels and tires and did not want an oddball bike with components that would not be interchangeable. In other words, if a spoke breaks on my commuter bike, I like being able to grab a wheel off another bike until I can get it fixed. Also, the roads are generally very good where I ride, so I have no need for a fat tired, cushy ride. We also have a lot of hills in NC, so light weight is a high priority. Finally, you may be able to find 650b wheels and tires if you shop around on the internet, but they are not readily available and even Rivendell didn't start offering built wheels on their website until recently.

Anyway, the Rambouillet was a great frame, and currently nobody else seems to make a frame just like it (except for some of the British bike companies like Mercian and Bob Jackson). Why Rivendell decided to ditch that frame is a mystery to me, but I suspect it was because they were trying to "push" people to buy their 650b models. No thanks.
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Old 12-12-08, 01:16 PM
  #78  
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an obsolete tire size gets reintroduced because of retro-geeks in france and the usa?

were the atlantis 26" bike wheel size not exclusive enough for rivendell? a little too pedestrian, less to brag about now that utility platform touring bikes have made a reappearance on the market?

what's the difference in mm size between an inflated 26" tire and a 700c? not so much.

I suspect Rivendell is looking to streamline and mass produce more framesets in Taiwan and sell them thru QBP. i also suspect he wants the exclusivity of 650b to set his frames off against the excellent choices now available in steel framesets.

Bianchi returned to steel road frames in 2009, raleigh as well. Trek is looking into reintroducing steel frame road bikes. GP's going to fade out as the last bastion purveyor of steel and become what his website shows him to be- trend setter for the retrogrouch followsheep contingent.



Grant must have needed a little more haughty.
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Old 12-12-08, 01:31 PM
  #79  
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Until last year, I wasn't sold on 650b, either. But rather than spout off about something I hadn't tried, I decided to take advantage of the relatvely inexpensive Bleriot to see what all the fuss was about.

That was the great thing about the Bleriot; it was cheap compared to all the custom options and prettier than the other Taiwanese tig-welded frame available.

No one is trying to convert anyone. If you want to stick solely with 700c, who cares (I have 4 other 700c bikes and a 26") but try to resist making pronouncements on something you have no experience with. There is a big dif between 26 and 700, while the size dif between 700X23 and my 650b w/ Grand Bois "Hetre" is only 2 cm.

While it's true that you likely can't walk into your LBS and buy 650b, that's the fault of the LBS. I can walk into one here in this town (pop: 290,000) and get whatever I need. Anyway, doesn't everyone at BF buy online?

Is there anyone else here who knows the joy of riding on the Grand Bois "Hetre?" Now, we can talk.
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Old 12-12-08, 02:21 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Randochap View Post
Is there anyone else here who knows the joy of riding on the Grand Bois "Hetre?" Now, we can talk.

I've not tried the Hetres, but I'm really digging the Col De La Vies that came on my Bleriot and the Fatty Rumpkins are great on the dirt. I'm really wanting to try the Maxey Fasty tires as I think they may roll a bit quicker...

I love how the poster above makes it sound like when Riv introduced the Bleriot, that's the only bike they decided to ever produce and that's why the Ram was discontinued. Now, let's ponder that a moment... Grant Peterson deicided to stop selling a frame/fork that retailed for at least $1500 for a frame/fork that retailed for $750, even though the $1500 frame was selling very well......Hmm, that doesn't make much sense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ric introduced the A. Homer Hilson soon after the Ram was discontinued. BTW- Rive just had a batch of new Rams that they sold out of immediatly, so the Ram is not dead forever (I want one as well).

As has been said, I don't reallt think GP is going to lose any sleep if you don't agree with his 650b logic...he's still selling tons of bikes and is offering a great deal to those that have had issues becuase of the economy...I don't see anyone else doing that.

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Old 12-12-08, 02:39 PM
  #81  
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'tons of bikes' is a bit of a misleading statement. he sells out of small batches of mass produced frames fairly frequently.

My theory is that he downsized his lineup and pricepoints to compete with value steel frames proliferating on the market. I suspect rivendell hopes to produce more mass marketable frames, with the haughty 650b panache attached to set his off from many competitors.

Terry, Rodriguez and other framemakers have been producing many frames for smaller riders and touring use for years using the standard available 26" standards of 559 and 571 (which is 650c for those not in the know.) 650A (590) was still a standard and available tire size before the post-modern reintroduction of the 650b.


my suggestions as to why and how grant positions his bike and frame lineup is based on his apparant corporate interest in mass marketing bikes thru QBP.

$500-1,800 bucks for an off the shelf frame doesn't make much sense you are correct, but changing an offensive pricepoint to sell more mass produced frames cheaply does make business sense.

Last edited by Bekologist; 12-12-08 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 12-12-08, 02:53 PM
  #82  
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One big plus for Rivendells is that they make larger stock bikes. I'm not freaky tall at 6'2" but I have 37" stand over. I was having trouble finding a touring bike that would allow me to get my handlebars anywhere near level with my seat without a ridiculous high rise stem and or a custom fork with a super long steerer tube. I tried out a Trek 520 and an LHT, but the Atlantis felt like it was made for me.
If you're in the 6'3" or taller range or have long legs good luck finding any stock bike that really fits.
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Old 12-12-08, 02:54 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
my suggestions as to why and how grant positions his bike and frame lineup is based on his apparant corporate interest in mass marketing bikes thru QBP.

This is where you obviously havn't done your research...One of the main reasons the Bleriot was discontinued is becuase shops who were getting the Bleriot through QBP was severly undercutting Riv's price of $750, eventhough they apparently agreed to a stipulation they would sell at MSRP when they decided to carry the frame.

From what I've read, I don't think Rivendell is going to sell any of their frames through QBP any more...

As far as $1500 being too expensive for an "off the rack" frame....I guess that's a matter of opinion

BTW- There is nothing that says the Atlantis (26" wheels) is getting replaced, it looks firmly entrenched in the lineup, as well as the Legolas which is more of a cross/speedy type of frame.

BTW- If Riv is selling out of their allotment of bikes, I guess that means people want them. My dad had his A.H.H. with 650b wheels in about a week and a half this fall....


Just curious- are Waterford frames generic "off the rack" frames that aren't worth the money also to you?

of course you must be saying Sheldon Brown doesn't know what he is talkng about either....
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Old 12-12-08, 02:54 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
an obsolete tire size gets reintroduced because of retro-geeks in france and the usa?

were the atlantis 26" bike wheel size not exclusive enough for rivendell? a little too pedestrian, less to brag about now that utility platform touring bikes have made a reappearance on the market?

what's the difference in mm size between an inflated 26" tire and a 700c? not so much.

I suspect Rivendell is looking to streamline and mass produce more framesets in Taiwan and sell them thru QBP. i also suspect he wants the exclusivity of 650b to set his frames off against the excellent choices now available in steel framesets.

Bianchi returned to steel road frames in 2009, raleigh as well. Trek is looking into reintroducing steel frame road bikes. GP's going to fade out as the last bastion purveyor of steel and become what his website shows him to be- trend setter for the retrogrouch followsheep contingent.

Grant must have needed a little more haughty.
I found the 650B to be a fine tire: a little faster than my 26" wheeled LHT, a little cushier than my 700x28c wheeled IRO. The problem was, that little bit wasn't enough to push it in either direction one way or the other.

The difference between a 26" and a 700c is significant, but the difference between either of those and a 650B is essentially nil. I tried the Kool-Aid, and, as it turns out, it tastes pretty much exactly like a bunch of other beverages you can buy, so it's a little extraneous.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Grant's need to champion the 650B to set his stuff apart from the others. The surging popularity of the NAHBS has reminded legions of steel-connoisseurs than extremely fine, completely custom, handmade bikes can be had for reasonable prices; thus, why buy a Riv, which is pretty close to what you want, when you can get a hand-made which is exactly what you want?

In many ways, I see GP being a victim of his own cult. His message has been seized upon so fervently that he is, himself, being driven by it. If Riv still ran the Rambo, Atlantis, Quickbeam, Saluki lineup like they did from a few years back, they'd still sell plenty, but there would be no room for growth. At least going the 650B route means that the cultists will still have to get their stuff from him, rather than following his ideals aboard a Surly or somesuch.
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Old 12-12-08, 03:00 PM
  #85  
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i just went to the garage and measured a 559- 26" street tire on one of my bikes- 670mm.

i measured my 622- 700c tires touring bike and they measure out at 700mm.


hmm..... 30mm difference. why the 650b again if NOT to reintroduce a haughty and largely discarded tire size? Grant could have built on the 590 or 597 ISO rim sizes and serve the world bicyclists a huge favor.
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Old 12-12-08, 03:01 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Randochap View Post
Of course I looked at it; it's linked from my site. The Confrerie were one of the organizations responsible for lobbying industry to reprise the old French standard.

Those of us running 650b know where to get what we need. The best tyres are made in Japan, where 650b is huge. Rims are Australian made. On edit: We now have available the new Grand Bois rim (also Japanese).
You're in North America! What does that have to do with my saying that 650b is a North American thing and not widely available in Europe?
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Old 12-12-08, 03:03 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by trelhak View Post
I think you hit the nail on the head with Grant's need to champion the 650B to set his stuff apart from the others. The surging popularity of the NAHBS has reminded legions of steel-connoisseurs than extremely fine, completely custom, handmade bikes can be had for reasonable prices; thus, why buy a Riv, which is pretty close to what you want, when you can get a hand-made which is exactly what you want?
Nothing wrong with trying to be different to make a buck...

As far as a custom being "exactly" what you want....I guess if the builder has enough experiance to know exactly what you want by talking to you or even sizing you up. Unless you're talking about the guys that have been doing this forever like Sachs, Serotta, Waterford then I'm not so sure you're getting anything more special or custom that an "off the shelf" that fits you. Heck, there is a reason Serotta has both options...

I was pretty happy that when I bought my Bleriot I was able to ride one down here in SD in the size that GP recommened, had that not been the case I don't think I would have bought one.

But, that's why there are hundreds of different builders... so we can all have our cake and eat it too! (and then go for a ride to burn it off)
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Old 12-12-08, 03:07 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
why the 650b again if NOT to reintroduce a haughty and largely discarded tire size? Grant could have built on the 590 or 597 ISO rim sizes and serve the world bicyclists a huge favor.
Why is it "haughty"? Just becuase it's different doesn't mean it's "stuck up".....

It might be pretty "haughty" to say GP is wrong with the 650b when all the Bleriots are currently sold out....obviuosly someone like them.
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Old 12-12-08, 03:25 PM
  #89  
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i suggest, threeflys, and be open to the possibility,


Reintroducing a discarded and out of production tire size to conform to old french standards is in and of itself haughty.


difference between large volume street 26" 559s and large volume touring 700c tires is 30mm diameter. why for the necessity for the 650b?

having drunk the koolaid will make it difficult for some to see the absurdity in it.]]

his new framesets selling for a thou will be mass produced in just four sizes for men.

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Old 12-12-08, 03:49 PM
  #90  
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Can someone explain what is so threatening about a wheel size?

I love cycling. You might say it is my religion, but I'm not a "cultist." Cultists are fundamentalists who can't accept other routes to the "truth." The truth of cycling, to me, actually has nothing to do with the "chuch," if you will, one attends. The essense, for me, is the ride and what you take from it.

It seems to me that the folks who come to BF to argue and use words like "obsolete" and "retogrouch" in relation to cyclists' choices aren't themselves really cyclists. They are, I've noticed, most often young, opinionated newcomers to the sport, who resent the knowledge of cycling elders and, having just "got religion," want to shove their particular brand down everyone else's throat.

In relation to the Rivendell brand and GP's quirky ideas: I'll pick and choose (like I do with organized religion -- good points = do unto others ..., bad points = smote thine enemies). Personally, I think he talks out of his hat when he recommends people discard their toe clips and clipless systems. But he makes some nice bikes. I'll take the bikes and leave most of the rest of his philosophy.

If you are going to pontificate on Rivendell/GP's motivations, at least do some research. As mentioned above, Grant severed his relationship w/ QBP (amicably, he says) over the Bleriot distribution debacle.

I agree that finding a 650b wheel/tyre might present a challenge in Latvia. Why not start importing them. Could be a sideline. But, as I said: Internet shopping. Most of us do it.

And how, I might arsk, can the word "haughty" be used in reference to the circumference of a metal hoop?

Last, if I may quote myself (without appearing haughty!) this is what I have to say on my site about appropriate technology:

I believe it is important to acknowledge the wisdom of pioneer cyclotourists, taking careful note of the bicycles and accouterments they chose. Some things — like appropriate geometry — simply can't be improved on. On the other hand, I believe it is foolish to let nostalgia stand in the way of innovation.
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Old 12-12-08, 03:50 PM
  #91  
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While I also don't like the idea of of just 4 sizes of frames....

I just don't see why 650b gets some people all hot under the collar... It's fine if you don't agree with it and don't buy them, there are plenty who do. But, to say it's "haughty" and absurd is to say anyone who bought or has a 650b bike is haughty and absurd....

It amazes me how Grant Peterson can pi$$ so many people off who don't even own his bikes and don't want too.... Of course I can't see what's so special about some bikes to wait five years for one, but I'm not going to rail against them...especially if I've never even rode one. It's hard to make a valid argument if you're just making it on speculation of how the product will perform.

Just another 650b believer...http://www.bikeman.com/content/view/1183/33/

and again, the man many believe to be "The Man" when it comes to things Bike:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/650b.html
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Old 12-12-08, 03:53 PM
  #92  
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Well said Randochap (from one of those youngins...)
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Old 12-12-08, 04:20 PM
  #93  
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hey, randochap.

i'm over 40, have been repacking BBs and hubs since the 1970's, started touring over 20 years ago, and work in the industry. I'm not a youngun who's not really a cyclist. bosh. i just went and compared a street 26" 559 and my touring 622's and the difference is 30mm outside diameter.


grant's marketing of 650b is haughty masquerading as populist. that's my opinion about 584, when other manufacturers are able to use 559 or 571 or 622 as effective wheel sizes. Why not AE-3 or the S-6?


the pedigree of french bikes. nice. maybe grant can bring back the french bottom bracket along with it.
a constructuer poseurfest.

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Old 12-12-08, 04:22 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by trelhak View Post
The difference between a 26" and a 700c is significant, but the difference between either of those and a 650B is essentially nil.
This makes no sense to me. The distance between A and B is huge, but the distance between A and C is nil, and the distance between B and C is nil. Is this geometrically possible?
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Old 12-12-08, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
hey, randochap.

i'm over 40, have been repacking BBs and hubs since the 1970's, started touring over 20 years ago, and work in the industry. I'm not a youngun who's not really a cyclist. bosh. i just went and compared a street 26" 559 and my touring 622's and the difference is 30mm outside diameter.


grant's marketing of 650b is haughty masquerading as populist. that's my opinion about 584, when other manufacturers are able to use 559 or 571 or 622 as effective wheel sizes. Why not AE-3 or the S-6?


the pedigree of french bikes. nice. maybe grant can bring back the french bottom bracket along with it.
a constructuer poseurfest.
Well mate, (depening how much over 40) I've got at least a decade on you, started working in the industry at 16, started touring over 40 years ago ... blah,blah, blah.

Who cares. My question would be what kind of service you are giving to your customers, if you are so blinkered that you can't see the viability of another option.
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Old 12-12-08, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by trelhak View Post
a hand-made which is exactly what you want?

In many ways, I see GP being a victim of his own cult.
Steel got a lot more expensive. Which would have pushed the price of the Bleriot
up around a grand. On top of that, he got hit by discounting. Discounting can really
hurt a small business. It has killed off entire market segments in the past, don't overlook that.

Anyway.... there are a lot of changes he has to deal with. What he is doing will cut costs. It looks less cultish to me. Most frames will be 700 except in the small sizes. The two new frames will be 650b, but only if you're short. I'm only 5' 8" and it doesn't look like they will have a production 650b for me (assuming I could afford another bike). There's custom, but their waiting line is years. I don't want to start collecting retirement checks before the frame shows up!
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Old 12-12-08, 05:00 PM
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blinkered as to not offer customers that option? why suggest it? Why suggest an obscure and what i consider a duplicitous 650b wheelsize if there's no few/no frames available for the bike shop to sell to customers available on the mass market, only two or three rims and six tires? that does NOT fit my definition of 'viable.'

...and michelin doesn't distribute 584s to NA last time i looked. maybe i'm mistaken, not at the shop today.


584 is not a reinvention of the wheel but the reintroduction of an obscure french tire standard to build a niche market in the USA and satisfy the retrogrouch and haughty desires of the constructuer poseur crowd.

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Old 12-12-08, 06:06 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
blinkered as to not offer customers that option? why suggest it? Why suggest an obscure and what i consider a duplicitous 650b wheelsize if there's no few/no frames available for the bike shop to sell to customers available on the mass market, only two or three rims and six tires? that does NOT fit my definition of 'viable.'

...and michelin doesn't distribute 584s to NA last time i looked. maybe i'm mistaken, not at the shop today.


584 is not a reinvention of the wheel but the reintroduction of an obscure french tire standard to build a niche market in the USA and satisfy the retrogrouch and haughty desires of the constructuer poseur crowd.
As I said, I'm not particularly religious, so Jeebus H man, take a breath. What is your problem? Listen to yourself. You are ranting like some kind of big tent preacher. What do you care if people want to build a bicycle with advantages, perceived or real, that they like?

And, if as you claim, you work "in the industry" why would you want to cut off your own nose, just to spite your face?

Sales of 650b tyres and rims put cash in the till. Don't you hate that? This year, I sold four 650b bikes -- a tiny percentage of total sales, but each bike totaled over $2500 when complete. All 4 customers (one who has a stable full of bikes, including $10,000+ Colnagos, Pegorettis, etc.) absolutely love their 650b bikes and now come in for upgrades, tyres, etc. Three of them still ride their other bikes, 700c, 26" and the like, but have a special place in their hearts for the classic French standard.

And why not? Unless, of course, they knew that their love affair with 650b was really getting up the nose of some grouch on a bike forum. I bet they'd quit their foolish pursuits pronto!

Have you ever noticed that the single definitive characteristic of a fundamentalist is hypocrisy? They always project their own fanaticisms onto the targets of their ire.

duplicitous: du·plic·i·tous
Pronunciation: du-'pli-s&-t&s also dyu-
Function: adjective
Date: 1928
: marked by duplicity : deceptive in words or action
- du·plic·i·tous·ly adverb

So we have a piece of metal that is both "haughty" and now "duplicitous." What next? Perhaps those smelly French hoops are SEDITIOUS!

I can see the headlines: "French traitors hide in bicycle parts, topple government"

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Old 12-12-08, 06:27 PM
  #99  
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cut off my nose to spite my face? "a special place in their hearts for the classic french standard!" aw, such artifice and reminisce!

No one, i mean no one, came in asking about 650b. of course, those that want 650b 'know where to go to get what they want', like randochap insinuates.

is there a movement afoot to bring back the other french standards???? will someone PLEASE start making french threaded bottom brackets and those 22.0 quill stems again? I can't stand sanding down a Nitto technomic to fit an old peugot....


someone is fanatical about constructeur, old french standards and reintroduction of an obsolete tire size to satisfy the whims and desires of the retrogrouch contingent, and it isn't me, randochap! take a look in the mirror, i browsed your website. egads.


...sorry to ride the lovers of 584 so hard, 650b's purported superiority over other tire sizes is difficult for me to swallow. 584 allowing an affected, purported poseur panache and the creation of a haughty bicycling standard as a north american niche market is much more likely.

Purveyors of 650b are duplicitous if they misrepresent 584 as providing a marked superiority over 26 or 700c sizes. this is part of the rallying cries of rivendell and jan heine to the 650b. i stand by my adjectives.

30mm difference in diameter between my 26" 559s and my touring 700c 622s.



that is all.

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Old 12-12-08, 06:44 PM
  #100  
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Found Poem

whims and desires
artifice and reminisce!
the retrogrouch
purported superiority
over other sizes
is difficult for me to swallow
affected, purported poseur panache
a haughty bicycling standard
a north american niche
is much more likely.

egads.
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