why do I keep breaking spokes?
#51
eternalvoyage
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,256
Likes: 0
I'm afraid the problem will show up again, as the NDS spokes in my new wheel are very loose. Two were even completely loose after I had done about 100kms. Luckily on a paved road. The wheel has been built in a small family shop, the guy having a glass of beer next to him. The spokes are probably not DT or Sapim!
Is there a fool proof way of tightening the spokes that I could use by myself? I'm about to hit gravel roads again. The other option is look for another shop and rebuild the wheel, as I'm in a bigger city now. But it's hard to ensure the quality of service. They always do a bad job here knowing you will never return to complain. And I'm tired of thinking that this and that bike shop f***ed my bike up (has happened several times).
Is there a fool proof way of tightening the spokes that I could use by myself? I'm about to hit gravel roads again. The other option is look for another shop and rebuild the wheel, as I'm in a bigger city now. But it's hard to ensure the quality of service. They always do a bad job here knowing you will never return to complain. And I'm tired of thinking that this and that bike shop f***ed my bike up (has happened several times).
You need a spoke wrench with the right fit. Make sure it's good and snug; otherwise, you can ruin the nipples. Spoke wrenches come in several slightly different sizes, for different nipples, and you want the right one for the nipples you are using.
Carry some extra spokes, just in case (the best quality you can find down there).
Once you develop a feel for it, it isn't that hard to check and adjust the tension.
You want the tension to be even on each side. The NDS will be looser; but the spokes should still be well tensioned, and as close as possible to equal in tension all the way around.
You can pluck the spokes and get an approximation -- all spokes on the same side should sound the same, or as close as possible.
You want to avoid loose spokes. They fail much sooner.
As you gain experience, you will also develop a feel for how tight they are, and how tight they should be. If you grip a pair of spokes in a 'handshake' grip, and squeeze, you can feel the deflection, and the resistance to deflection (this is how most tensiometers work). After a while, you just get a feel for this, and you can use it in addition to the plucking method.
It helps to find some good, well-built, well-tensioned wheels. Pluck the spokes. Squeeze and deflect. Gain some familiarity....
It isn't that hard; you just need some hands-on experience.
********
If you take a couple of pieces of thin, bendable wire, and attach one end to the back of the rack, near the rim, and then make a small loop on the other end, and bend the wire so the loop is very close to the rim, it can serve as a guide for truing the wheel. If you position it near the outer edge of the rim, it can also serve to gauge the roundness of the wheel -- so you have both left-right, and in-out gauges; and if you repeat on the other side, you have gauges for both sides. I just leave these wires in place (after bending them just a little bit, so they are out of the way), and they are ready to be used whenever needed. You can check your wheels easily at any time this way.
You can hang the bike from a sturdy tree branch or some other support, using parachute cord, rope, straps, or whatever you have. Or you can flip the bike over.
Good luck with it, and please let us know how it goes.
Last edited by Niles H.; 04-16-10 at 08:22 AM.
#52
Senior Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,870
Likes: 356
From: Right where I'm supposed to be
Bikes: Franklin Frames Custom, Rivendell Bombadil
Well miki150 ....... I feel the pain you're in . I don't know how much you'll be able to help yourself or not, and I can't offer you anything to help you currently, other than in the future..... either learn to make your own wheels... which may or may not be as simple as it sounds...... or seek a truly professional wheelbuilder. I don't know what country you're from, but they're around. In the US, Joe Young is my favorite. Peter White, Gravvy Wheels and Rich Lesnick at Rivendell are all good also.
Once you experience a superbe set of wheels, you will never settle for less. Most people, however, have never seen a superb set of wheels, as pre-made and LBS wheels cannot match the work of dedicated pro. Not an absolute, but in general.
Once you experience a superbe set of wheels, you will never settle for less. Most people, however, have never seen a superb set of wheels, as pre-made and LBS wheels cannot match the work of dedicated pro. Not an absolute, but in general.
Last edited by Garthr; 04-16-10 at 06:05 AM.
#53
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Yes, I'm definitely going to learn how to build a wheel. In fact I'll take the whole bike apart and put it together again when I get home.
I don't want to use a bike service ever again, I haven't had a single good experience with any of them. I think each bike shop that I've taken this bike to has broken something in it.
I think I'll only do another 700km on this trip, so I'll just go with what I have. I'll by a few replacement spokes for the new wheel. They are all new spokes, so should last me that much, even if they're not tensioned correctly.
I don't want to use a bike service ever again, I haven't had a single good experience with any of them. I think each bike shop that I've taken this bike to has broken something in it.
I think I'll only do another 700km on this trip, so I'll just go with what I have. I'll by a few replacement spokes for the new wheel. They are all new spokes, so should last me that much, even if they're not tensioned correctly.
#54
just another gosling


Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 20,555
Likes: 2,667
From: Everett, WA
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
I was surprised when I emailed Velocity to find they build all their wheels to the same tension regardless of size or spoke count. The park converted numbers are about what CFboy mentioned, so his wheels are dead on. One of the advantages to building with quality stuff is one can get a manufacturer's recommendations for the the tension.
Here is an article that relates tension to musical pitch. While this might be more difficult than a gage, it might be fairly easy to establish on the run in SA, and also as a method of checking tension of adjacent spokes. It is possible to have fairly divergent tensions even when the wheel appears to be true.
Here is an article that relates tension to musical pitch. While this might be more difficult than a gage, it might be fairly easy to establish on the run in SA, and also as a method of checking tension of adjacent spokes. It is possible to have fairly divergent tensions even when the wheel appears to be true.
I was also surprised to see the Velocity info back when I started building wheels. Spoke tension varies quite a bit as the wheel rolls. Suprisingly, the greatest spoke tension is in the spokes on either side of the contact patch, not on the top spokes. In any case, if all the spokes are to remain tight as the wheel rolls, even those at the contact patch, they have to be stretched during the initial build. So my guess is that Velocity figures their wheels will be built with 14-15 butted spokes and these tensions adequately stretch those spokes, so their rims are designed to support these tensions. Hence the number of spokes doesn't matter. They're not being tensioned to support a load, but rather to stretch the spokes.
The interesting thing about the Rolfs isn't the variation in spoke tension, it's the level of tension - very low compared with a traditional build. 140 lbs, which is only 64 kgf. So much for the talk of how all low spoke count wheels are in high tension and apt to fail! My guess is that either Rolf's spoke material stretches more easily than the usual round steel spoke and hence required less tension, or perhaps the stiffness of the rim allows much less change in spoke tension as the wheel rolls, hence less stretch is required. However that may be, the Rolfs require the least attention of all my wheelsets.
And in any case, stretch those spokes! That's what keeps them from breaking.
Oh . . . and this stretching business is the reason that wheels built with heavier spokes are not stronger than those built with normal spokes, which is an appropriate thing for a tourer to be aware of. Heavier or unbutted spokes at the rim's specified tension will have less stretch. 10 spokes at 110kgf = 1100 kg/wheel! Don't need more strength than that.
Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 04-16-10 at 12:06 PM.
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