agreed, I worked at my bike shop on the north west coast for six years, didn't see anywhere as many bikes as most city shops but my recollection is that most spokes broke on the drive side. For all the spokes to break on one side of the non drive side flange leads me to think those spokes were weakened compared to the drive side from day the wheel was assembled. It's just too consistant.

I would suggest using Wheelsmith spoke prep rather than linseed oil.

The linseed oil does make the wheel build easy and cost much less than Wheelsmith spoke prep, but it does not set nearly as well.

Just don't use a ton of spoke prep. One of my team mates built a wheel and used it liberally. He did a rush job and had to true it a few weeks later; a few nips were frozen on. He ended up rounding the off and replacing nip/spoke.

If you oil or grease the spoke threads instead of using Spoke prep, linseed oil or thread lock, and then tension the spokes uniformly and to a high enough level, the friction between the nipple and the rim (whether or not there is an eyelet) will be enough to keep the nipples from loosening. That way if you have to true the wheel again later for any reason, you'll be able to turn the nipples.

I agree with the others that the symptoms are consistent with insufficient tension on the non-driving side. The combination of only 32 spokes, the dish and exposure to vibration in the plane were sufficient to loosen the non-driving threads just a little. Your riding did the rest. All the non-driving side spokes were probably damaged. If you have a lot more to go on your trip, you may want to consider getting a new wheel (preferably with 36 or 40 spokes).

However, I gather that you are still persistent after 10 broken spokes and want to continue on this wheel. The extreme dish with today's 7, 8, 9 and 10 speed cassettes creates an extreme difference in the tension on the driving and non-driving side spokes. Spokes need a certain minimum tension to keep the nipples from unthreading and for the spokes not to knock at the elbow. Increasing all spoke tension to get this minimum tension on the non-driving side runs the risk of pulling the spoke through the rim, especially with only 32 spokes. Then you will have to replace the rim, as well.

Here's one trick you can use to increase the spoke tension on the non-driving side without changing the dish. Use a spoke pattern on the non-driving side that results in a significantly longer spoke for that side vs. the driving side. For example, if the driving side is X3 you may want to try a X4 on the non-driving side. This will make the tensions on the driving and non-driving sides much closer together, than if they used the same pattern.

This is my understanding as well.

Once 2-3 spokes on the same wheel break, AFAIK the most prudent course of action is to rebuild the whole wheel. Otherwise you will, as you have done, keep breaking spokes on that wheel.

It's also a bit unclear who is replacing the spokes, what tools they have available, how good is the mechanic in question.

Thanks for all the replies. The problem has solved itself: the rim broke, and I bought a new wheel with 36 spokes. I don't want to speculate why it broke, there might have been a few other reasons besides the spoke problem. Probably everything combined.

I've got just one more question. The bike shop only had road bike rims, narrower then my old rim. The tires seem to fit ok (they're 1.6 inch), and the new rim looks much stronger than the old one. Should I expect any problems with it just because it's narrower? I'm thinking about the bad roads again.

I would ride more gently. That can go a long way in saving rims and spokes. High speeds and aggressive riding on rough roads with a fully loaded touring bike can be a recipe for overstressing the wheel, cumulative metal fatigue, and accelerated kaputitude.

Seriously, a rider whose riding style is gentler on the bike can make wheels (among other things) last way longer. It's the accumulated hits (especially the harsh ones) that eventually add up to the point of too much fatigue, and doing things in.

A lot of it can be avoided by simply adopting some new approaches or riding habits -- slowing down, choosing your lines more carefully, taking it especially easy on extra rough sections of road, etc.

As far as the narrowness goes: all else being equal, wider rims are more robust. That is not to say yours isn't good enough, though; and it even could be stronger than your old rim. A lot depends on the exact brand and model.

My guess is that -- if it is a decent model, and you ride reasonably carefully -- it could last you quite a while.

Be sure to check the spoke tension once in a while, and keep things well tensioned.

Also, if you tension the wheel so that it is offset one or two millimeters toward the non-drive side (rather than perfectly centered), you can equalize the tension quite a bit between the drive and non-drive sides. I've done this, and it has worked and lasted very well, with no noticeable effects at all on the handling. You could try it and see if it works for you.

Remember too that some brands of spokes are much more durable than others. DT Swiss is a brand to look for.

It would help if you can lower your tire pressure when you go off road. It might not be feasible because of pinch flats, but if you can it will help protect the wheel.

I'm afraid the problem will show up again, as the NDS spokes in my new wheel are very loose. Two were even completely loose after I had done about 100kms. Luckily on a paved road. The wheel has been built in a small family shop, the guy having a glass of beer next to him. The spokes are probably not DT or Sapim!

Is there a fool proof way of tightening the spokes that I could use by myself? I'm about to hit gravel roads again. The other option is look for another shop and rebuild the wheel, as I'm in a bigger city now. But it's hard to ensure the quality of service. They always do a bad job here knowing you will never return to complain. And I'm tired of thinking that this and that bike shop f***ed my bike up (has happened several times).

I drink beer while truing wheels, so I have no problem with that. The loose spokes, however, are a problem. Go back and have him retension the wheel. He should do this for free and very quickly --two days max.

If he won't do it for free, or won't do it well, raise a bit of hell. Get him to reimburse whatever he charged you for labor, then go to another shop and have them retension the thing. You do not need to rebuild the wheel yet, but getting proper tension on the spokes is imperative. Do it ASAP.

Yikes, that really sucks. While it's possible to retension a wheel just using the frame and brakes as a makeshift truing stand, if you've never built a wheel before, it's likely that you'll make the problem worse. I would try my luck with a local shop.

But, if you're feeling adventurous, loosen all the spokes so that they're completely slack, and follow this guide starting at "Initial spoke adjustment"

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Instead of a truing stand, you'll have to use your rear triangle. Loosen the brakes so the loose wheel has room to move, then as it comes into shape, tighten the brakes and use them to check trueness. Again, if you've never done this before you're likely to jack up your wheel. I would still take it to a shop.

The guy is on tour in Patagonia. It sounds like he's pretty far from the original shop, and even if he wasn't, I'm not sure raising a stink and demanding refunds is going to get you very far at some backwoods shop.

It's tough when you're touring and doing your own work, because you don't have a tensiometer. I agree with rhm, that it's almost certainly too low spoke tension. Your drive side spokes are under more tension, so are stretched more, so don't loosen. Straight gauge spokes are more difficult to get just right, because they don't stretch as much, so there's a greater tension change in a smaller length change.

All your spokes on the non drive side are probably fatigued and should all be replaced. Easiest to do them all at once. I'd replace all of the spokes on both sides with the same, butted spokes - they're cheap, so replace the new ones, too, and tension up the whole wheel. Your NDS spokes want to be at least as tight as your front spokes, or better, find a shop with a tensiometer.

This is crazy. You will either end up with an undertensioned front wheel or an overtensioned rear wheel. *DS* should be about the same as the front, and both should be at whatever the max tension for the rim is.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

If you go to section "half-radial spoking" there is a good answer to my original question, why the left side spokes were breaking in my old wheel.

I love the idea of that, but the reality is the standard spoke pattern works just fine if properly built. Spokes don't really mater all that much, what matters is wheel build and spoke to hub fit. Brand or type is way down the list, for the first few hundred thousand miles.

Other versions of the half radial idea are wheels built with thinner spokes on the non-drive side. Or one side straight one side butted.

Stress relieving spokes is a good method to lengthen spoke life, there are a lot of methods. Start with cold setting heads gently setting the heads in the hub like a finishing nail. Mak sure the spokes are bent to the right angle over the rim. Take parallel pairs of spokes and squeeze them till you hear some shifting. put the wheels hub down on a carpet or board and lean fairly heavily on opposite sides of the rim, as if putting a stiff lid on a garbage can. Do this all the way around and on both sides. You should hear the spokes pop free of the rim. I think sheldon had a method of using pry bars or something. This is part of the process of getting spokes up to full reliable tension and reducing fatigue failures at the hub.

Another thing that is supposed to wear out spokes is that people thread them on certain hubs so that the bend is in a radiused hole. Some hubs have no counter sinks, some have counter sinks on one side only. On those hubs it is bad to put the bend where it exist the counter sunk side, it should dig itself a channel on the sharp looking side. That said, some of the fancy hubs I have all CNC machined etc... have counter sinks both sides so it can't be all that terrible (advice assumes alloy hubs).

By the way, another thing not to worry about is your weight or the 32 spokes thing. Should be fine on the front wheel only, would be fine on the back on 26" wheels. 36 is just better.

No, I am not crazy. I have been building my own wheels for a while and they hold up better than factory or LBS wheels, and they are built to the rim manufacturer's spec, which might have something to do with that.

I just went out and measured spoke tension on my tandem, conventional 36H Velocity rims, because this bike is loaded like a touring bike might be and has145mm rear dropouts. My Park tensiometer reads ~19 on the front spokes, ~20 on the NDS spokes, and ~21 on the DS. Velocity specs 105-115 kgf for front wheels and 110-120 kgf for rear wheels, so I'm in the range, which might have something to do with the reason my tandem wheels stay true and don't break spokes. I built these wheels a couple of years ago.

On my single with Rolfs for another instance, Rolf specs 140 lbs. front spoke tension and 180 lbs. DS tension.

You are incorrect.

You've cherry-picked some nice corner cases there, which I respond to below, but the real point is that NDS and front tension don't have anything to do with each other. There is a spec for tension that applies to DS rear and front, or one for each. NDS is whatever is necessary to get the dish right. On a typical modern wheel, NDS tension will actually be a fair amount less than the front tension. On more exotic wheels, it might be greater, but it's not a sign of a better (or worse) wheelbuild as long as everything else checks out.

With a 145 mm OLD, there's very little dish in that wheel. With a typical 130-135mm hub, your NDS tension is not going to be so high. Also, I don't know what gauge spokes you're using, but based on those readings either your DS is overtensioned or your front is undertensioned (at least according to the specs you quote).

I've never seen that drastic a difference in spoke tension for front and rear, but I admit I have no experience with paired spoke and/or low spoke count wheels. In any case, I'd bet that the NDS tension is less than 140.

What if I tighten all the left side spokes by 1/2 turn, and then apply the seating and stress relieving steps from the mentioned article? Would that help?

Given what you've described, a quick fix like that is liable to make things worse. What does the right side tension feel like? Say, compared to your front spokes.

edit: Also, is the wheel true (not rubbing the brake pads as it rotates) and dished correctly (centered between the dropouts. You can gauge this by sticking your fingers between the rim and the seatstays).

edit2: If the DS tension is not super high, and the wheel is generally true and dished correctly, then here is an option. If there are any NDS spokes that are totally loose (rattling around), tighten them just enough to take the slack out, but don't put any tension on them. Then put 1/2, or even a whole, turn on *every* spoke. (Just doing one side would move the rim.) I would still press my luck with a local mechanic, but at least if your wheel goes all wobbly or doesn't track straight, then it's not too hard to undo your changes.

I used the tandem because I don't have an MTB, the tandem's wheels are much more highly stressed than any touring bike, and because the OP hasn't told us what his dropout spacing (DOS) is. However, if he's running 32H touring wheels and 1.6" tires, it seems to me there's some possibility that he's got 135 DOS. Never heard of a road tire dimensioned at 1.6". And that tire is sure not going to work on a 15mm road rim.

But even if he's running 130 DOS, I think you'd be wrong in your original assertion about tension: if he tensions his DS the same as his front, his NDS will be too low. On a 130 rear DOS bike, the front tension should be between the DS and NDS tension. All my road bikes are like that, and I never break spokes. A tourer trying to tension a wheel has to have something to go by, and plinking the front spokes will give him that, assuming that the front wheel was originally built correctly.

That's all he has to do: bring the rear tension up until his spokes are all tight, the wheel is round, and the wheel is dished correctly, i.e. rim same distance from the brake pads when inserted normally and 180° from normally. Then plink the rear spokes and the front, and adjust all rear spokes by the same amount, a little at a time, until the front plink is between the rear plinks in tone. Then readjust the dish, which will now be a bit out.

Spoke tensions are a little like tire pressures. We try to get them to come out to spec, but there's going to be some variation, which I attempted to indicate by the "~" symbol, and there is a good bit of leeway in the exact tensions. You're right that the NDS spokes on the Rolfs measure at less than 140 lbs. I should have gone out and measured them, instead of only relying on Rolf for info.

I was surprised when I emailed Velocity to find they build all their wheels to the same tension regardless of size or spoke count. The park converted numbers are about what CFboy mentioned, so his wheels are dead on. One of the advantages to building with quality stuff is one can get a manufacturer's recommendations for the the tension.

Here is an article that relates tension to musical pitch. While this might be more difficult than a gage, it might be fairly easy to establish on the run in SA, and also as a method of checking tension of adjacent spokes. It is possible to have fairly divergent tensions even when the wheel appears to be true.

Depends on the wheel spec, and in most cases it's a small difference. For example, Mavics have the same spec for both wheels. Even with the Velocities, there is only 5 kgf difference between the two ranges. On the other hand, with a 135 mm wheel, NDS will be about 70% of DS. Use your "NDS >= front" and one of those wheels will be off by 30+ kgf. That's a recipe for disaster.

This is a (mostly) correct statement, but it's irrelevant. There is a spec for DS tension and front tension, and often it's the same or about the same. NDS is whatever it needs to be to make the rear wheel true and dished. The relationship between NDS tension and front tension doesn't matter.

Waste of time. If the wheel is already in ok shape, just bring up the DS to where it should be (same as or slightly higher pitch than front), and then adjust the NDS, and maybe the DS if the rim is borked, to fix the dish or true. You don't need to check the NDS tension as you go because it is entirely determined by the DS tension and the geometry of the wheel. That's why it's crazy to make any statement about what NDS "should" be.

What gauge spokes did you use? Looking at the Park table, for just about any gauge, one of your wheels is off 10-20 kgf. I'm not saying that your wheel will fail because of it, but the only reason your NDS spokes are tighter than your front spokes is because you built one of the wheels out of spec.