Hi All, Well the honeymoon is over with the T700 I recently built, it's a keeper. I do have some questions, however. I use the KOPS theory as a guide on my road bikes and did so also on the T bike. If so then my steering stem is a wee bit short, but not too badly. I'm comparing a '96 Cannondale road bike with a '95 Cannondale T frame.

The questions:
1. Are touring rider's knees more normally behind the pedal spindle than a road rider's? If so, why?
2. Or, is a more upright riding position on a touring bike generally the rule?

TIA, Brad

PS Bonus question Are aero bars ever used on a touring bike?

I've seen guys use aero bars, but if you get into trouble unexpectedly....

Touring bikes usually have a moderate riding position.

I am not sure what is going on with your pedals. But... you want good ergonomics.


So... is it comfy? Because comfort for a couple hours is a different thing from comfortable enough
for several hours.

1) My knees are behind the pedal spindle on both my road bike and my touring bike. No reason to destroy your knees looking for that last watt of power unless you're racing... professionally.

2) My road bike and touring bike are set up pretty similar, though the touring bike has a slightly shorter stem. This gives a fractionally more upright riding position on the touring bike. I can ride either bike all day long, so there doesn't seem to be any reason to alter the geometry between them.

I won't speak to what is "generally the rule". I will say that the same aggressive position that I have on my road bike is what I prefer on my touring bike. For me that means bars 4-5" below the saddle and knees over the spindle. In my experience it is most comfortable for long days day after day.

I don't get how folks ride upright for comfort and then have more weight on the saddle and road shock going up the spine as a result. To me that is not comfortable. Others find it works for them.

I would say that the answer is relative to how you plan on touring. Some people ride hard, even touring. Some people ride very slow, for just a few hours a day while touring. Most are somewhere in between.

If you plan on touring for an extended time ( a week or more), and sight-seeing, you'll probably want to be more upright. It takes a lot of weight off your arms and shoulders, flattens out your back, and puts your body in a more relaxed position to more easily observe what's around you. Your knees are likely to be behind the spindle. Most people want a more comfortable saddle, since you won't be pedaling hard enough to lift the weight off your butt. You'll be on and off the bike more often, so your butt will get frequent breaks to recover.

That said, I've seen folks touring around with bikes set up in full racing positions. Depends on how you want to travel.

Lots of people use aero bars while touring. Most don't have them set up very aero though...

There are a few reasons why some (but not all) people like to tour in a more upright position.

• To get a better view of the scenery
• Speed is not important
• Some find it more comfortable

There are some speed demons out there, of course, but the above usually apply to everyone else.

I for one don't place a lot of stock in KOPS except as a starting point.

This, plus don't change the saddle-pedal relationship for any reason, once you find the one that works for you. That's identical for me between my two bikes. My tour bike is set up with the bars 1cm below the saddle, my roadie the bars are 2cm below the saddle (I'm quite short, so that is actually a drop for me). This difference is unintentional and honestly, not noticeable amongst the rest of the very different handling feel between the two bikes.

Like staehpj1, when I tour, I'm riding fairly hard quite a bit of the time, not toodling along craning my neck "smelling the roses." I ride in the drops fairly often, stand up, attack hills and hammer.... of course, all at a glacial speed due to the heavy bike, but I'm still riding more like a roadie than a tourist.

Thanks all for the comments thus far. I guess I'm overthinking the set up thing, but I just wondered if I'm not missing any touring specific fit items.

One of the things that brought this thread to mind is if my saddle were mounted in the same position on the seat post as the road bike's the T bike's stem length would be a moot point. The saddle is mounted more forward on the T bike's seat post because of the slacker seat tube angle to get the same fit as my road bike. It just seems that in OEM configuration (Just a starting point for fit.) the T bike suggests I should be further behind the pedal spindle than with the road bike.

The aerobar question was only because I recently sold my last set of unused aerobars. I just don't think I'll need them on the T bike as I see that mileage in a different light compared to the road bike.

Thanks again for all of the helpful comments.

Brad

I would use your normal bike fit as a starting point. No point in changing what works, particularly with regard to KOP. Higher handlebars, however, have several benefits from a touring standpoint. First, you are better able to enjoy the scenery in a more upright position. Second, a touring bike generally has larger tires that absorb more shock, so a more upright position should have little or no affect on saddle comfort. Third, being able to ride comfortably in your drops is extremely important while touring because you might have to pedal into headwinds, crosswinds for extended periods. I rode 263 miles at Cycle NC along the coast last weekend, including 101 miles on Saturday, in very windy conditions. I rode in my drops about half the time over the weekend and was very comfortable doing so because my handlebars are about level with my saddle height. That made a huge difference when riding in the wind. Most cyclists I have seen with large seat-to-handlebar differences never ride in their drops. However, if you are one of those cyclists who are most comfortable riding with a large seat-handlebar drop, stick with it. It's really an individual fit issue.

valygrl, At 6' the shorter stem only changes my ride position slightly and the T bike's stem height is actually ~1/2 cm lower to compensate for the slacker head tube angle (same stem angle), which puts the handlebar tops in almost the same position, just a tad higher. My riding style is the same on both, I'm me and that's not going to change... except until I get some better tires I won't corner as hard.

I guess another reason for this thread is I happen to have the two bikes parked handlebar to handlebar and it's striking how they can fit almost identically and yet appear so different.

Brad

PS Tarwheel, I wish I could get out of my home lately long enough for even a metric. I am comfortable with the bike as it's set up now and in my mind felt that if it's comfortable now, it should still be laden... I just didn't know if I were missing a fine point here or there.

A touring frame will usually have a relaxed seat tube angle. A regular road bike or racing bike will have a seat tube angle closer to 90 degrees, relative to the road. If you set up your touring bike with the bars at the same height in relation to the saddle, as a regular road bike, you'll be that much more bent over. Your butt will be way back and your pedals will be way out in front of your knees.

This would not be the case if you set your saddle position properly. Saddle position should be set with with same or very similar knee-over-pedal position (KOP), regardless of the seat-tube angle. So, if a frame has a more relaxed STA, you would move the saddle forward more to achieve KOP compared to a frame with a steeper STA. In other words, your butt should be no further back if your saddle is positioned properly, regardless of STA.

I agree completely, I personally dont get why you would want your tourer set up very much differently than a bike you ride unloaded.
I find that whether loaded or unloaded, I instinctively put out the effort that is my comfortable "cruising" speed. Meaning I am going at it so that I have a nice balance of hand weight, butt weight, leg output that I can keep up comfortabley for quite awhile. If I ride with someone who is a lot slower than me, it is uncomfortable, more weight on hands, on bum.

Yes, as I commute I am sprinting here and there, or going fast just for fun, which I wouldnt do on a day ride that much, but really, a bikes "cockpit" setup works or it doesnt, and when I ride unloaded, I tend not to "take it overly easy".
Just as when touring, even if I am going slowly, I am working at least if not usually harder than when I ride unloaded-so a proper cockpit setup for fairly stenuous, regular output is just as important (if not more even I would say, given how much fricken work it is pushing a loaded or semi loaded bike up hills)

I am not a "racer" but a quickish "sport rider" if you want to put a term to it. I enjoy being close to my comfortable max output for a long period, and a proper bar setup is important for that, whether its at 30k per hour unloaded or 15kph or 10kph with a heavy bike.

thats my take on it anyways

ps, even if I am working hard and even going "fast", we are talking bike speeds here, and I find I enjoy the view just as much fast or slow (but then I am not a "heads down,totally hammering it" all ride, sort of rider anyway in general)

i got a fit just last week from the same dude that gave me on for my road bike. This time he asked if I wanted a touring fit for my new bike and I said sure. when I asked what the difference was he said by adjusting the saddle slightly you can effect which muscle groups are being used. For climbing, bursts and more aggressive riding you want to engage the hamstrings and calves, you do this by moving the seat slightly back. for touring and commuting you want a more balanced or quad centered fit apparently, you accomplish this in a neutral or slightly forward position.

I think that the reason most people set up a tourer differently from their everyday road/training/fast bike is that they want the tourer to be more comfortable for longer periods of time. The regular road bike is meant to be faster for shorter periods, perhaps with some sacrifice for long distance comfort.

I would imagine that the bottom line is this: the same body position that you want to be in when you are trying to go fast , and consistently pedaling hard, is probably not the same position that you want to be in when you are on the bike for most of the day, day after day.

The most important element of fit is the comfort of being on the bike. the various formulas are fine as starting points, but how the bike feels when you pedal it for hours on end is the most important thing. Interestingly enough, my road bike is set up more than my touring bike than the other way around. I'm not interested in speed or nuances of efficiency, I bought the road bike not for speed but because it is light and has high end components. It is a pleasure to pedal, especially uphill. But it's set up with my bars an inch higher than my saddle because that's the way I like it. It's more comfortable for me to be more upright. As for the position of my knees over the pedal spindle, i've never given it much thought. I look down, things look normal, so I go with it. both my road and touring bikes are very comfortable to pedal for many hours. I've not measured anything with a tape measure. It all feels good on both my bikes. Ditto for my other two bikes as well, though I do not ride them much anymore. Comfort is the most important thing, not measurements or formulas. They are only starting points.

thulsa, I guess I should specify that my "road" bike (a cross bike with 28s) is set up so that I am comfortable on it for long periods of time. I dont have a pure "road" bike, so even though the bars on the cross bike are lower than teh bars on my touring bike, the reach is a bit shorter, so it is actually more comfortable than the touring bike.
At the end of last season when I was in stronger shape, I had thought of lowering my cross bars down a spacer or two, but in the end, Im not really into getting a bit more "aero" at teh expense of day long comfort, and the cross bike was happily very comfortable for a 6 day tour I did last summer with my wife, so Im happy with it.

Im definately in the "want it to be comfortable" crowd, and as the cross bike is set up for me, it is great. Plus its faster than my tourer, but if I were to get a new touring bike, I would use the same cockpit dimensions as the cross bike, just cuz it works for me, even all day long.

I am also predominantly a sit down rider, so I do like a knee friendly fore-aft position, with more of a slight rear seat position if anything as it helps with seated pedalling power while climbing (or at least thats how it feels to me, plus it does seem easier on the knees, which I am careful of) I have not really done the plumb-line thing.

As you get older your road bike position will come up
to resemble your touring bike's .

cute fiets , cute
but thats what I love about biking, that its still a very doable sport at all kinds of ages.

Hi All, This has turned out to be a really good thread for the experianced road rider new to touring and a touring frame. If anyone wants I'll shoot a pic of the two bikes side-by-side. While I still have so much to learn, here's what I think are major points I've picked up so far...

1. My initial instinct to set the T frame as similar as possible to the road frame I'm comfortable with was correct.
2. The slacker seat tube is likely designed to transmit a little less road shock.
3. The slacker head tube is simply for stability, primarily when loaded. Ditto for the chain stay length.
4. Because of the taller tires it may be wiser to get a T frame slightly smaller than a road frame if stand over clearance is important. That may cause further discussion.
5. I feel like with traction I could go vertical using the 22T-30T granny... I'm easily amused.

Brad

Maybe, but at almost 60 I haven't noticed it yet. I didn't notice my Dad's bars getting any higher when he was 79 either.

5-heck with a 22-30 you can do pretty much anything. I used a 24 granny-30 for most of my trips and my low low didnt get that used , but sometimes. Nice to have, steep parts of Pyrenees Mtns, or down West Coast of States. Depends on what sort of weight you are taking on bike though, I was pretty careful, maybe had 40 lbs.
Essentially, having really low gearing is great even if you dont use it, its when you dont have it and you wish you did thats its a problem. If you dont use it often, who cares.

Staehp--stories like that I like to hear. Makes me recall seeing Sunday packs in France going by, usually with a few fellows over 65 or 70 zinging by. Good role models.

Try a 20-25% grade with a loaded bike and you will definitely appreciate that granny. I know I do.