Do you take a first aid kit? if it gets no hash mark do you leave it behind? Just the first thought that hit me when I read your tape idea.(good idea)

I tend to use light running shoes on tour, can't hammer with those. But yes, everything should have a dual pupose. And as you say, there are so many variables on conditions and time of year, there is no one set packing list, at least for me.

I'm still trying to figure out how to cram the kitchen sink into my Ortliebs. My hat's off to y'all.

But I don't mind the extra weight if I have a vehicle (bike, kayak). If I have to carry all on my back (hiking, XC-skiing), it's another story. I wonder if there are self-supported long distance swimmers? :eek:

--J

There's a set bare minimum amount of gear needed to live outdoors on a bicycle.

you need warm clothes, you need a place to sleep, you need shelter. you need food.

to reduce this to such small loads it fits into a couple of small bags is ultralite fanaticism. I do it, but it's thoroughly an exercise in extremism. I don't have a four bag touring bike setup right now, and kind of miss it.


I don't know how I'm going to haul my winter tent and winter sleeping bag on this.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270332 and I'd never get my skis on it! http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270333 although i did sleep under a tarp on both these trips.

a more enlightened goal for bike touring is a comfortable setup. lightweight is a valuable goal. Using found material for insulation? Sleeping on bubble wrap?

You may have wandered off the path into the brush.



Asceticism isn't necessary to enjoy bike touring. a good book and warm sweater, maybe.

Personally I think that rule has caused of a lot of bad decisions. Dual purpose stuff can be good but it isn't a given that a multipurpose item is a better choice. I'll quote the following from my article to explain my thoughts on this.

"I have read where a number of tourists mandate that all items must do at least double duty. No single purpose items allowed. At least one of the proponents of this philosophy rejects better options out of hand because they were single use items and would give the item no consideration.

On the face of it the mandate sounds like a good idea. Items serving multiple purposes has to be a good idea, right? Well actually it might not be in many cases. The thing is the following have to be considered:

1. Does the multifunction item actually weigh less than the single purpose items it replaces
2. Does the multifunction item actually do the functions all as well or at least well enough
3. Are all of the functions actually necessary, if not is the item lighter than the single purpose items that it replaces that are actually necessary
4. Are any problems created by the multifunction item? For example do you need it for two different purposes at the same time or will the item be wet or dirty from one use when it is needed for another

Note that I have not found space to be a big concern, but if it is for you the items in the list where weight is considered you may need to consider bulk as well.
After considering all of that, some multipurpose items make sense and others not. Also the answer is not necessarily a simple straight forward one.

Bottom line... Consider multipurpose items but consider everything and only use them when they make sense."

That looks like a sweet setup. I found that when I used something similar it worked out very well.

I have gone to light dry bags for my recent tours, but two panniers on the front is a pretty sweet setup. I have been tempted to go back to it and might if I had lighter panniers in the correct size. I might even wind up making some panniers out of some light dry bags. I really like having the bags stay on the bike in camp. With panniers I find that I pack up and break camp quicker because anything not in use stays in the panniers which never come off the bike when on tour. I like that the bags stay upright and things seem more accessible.

Bottom line... I have to concede that by going to dry bags I save a bit of weight, but do lose some convenience.

Good thing, otherwise you'd have practically no one to talk to when you're touring. The question is, will they talk to you? Probably not, if you're evangelizing.

Thanks. That was from two years ago and the most ultralight I've gotten. Actually right prior to that, I purchased the Sea-To-Summit compression sack hoping to replace the panniers. I was never able to pack it with the stuff in the two panniers and mount it comfortably on top of that front rack. I also realized that access would be extremely cumbersome. The sack went back to REI.

The weekend trip I was doing (in the photo) was in warm weather. I carried a summer therm-a-rest quilt (25 ounces), my Big Agnes SL-1 using the fly only option (39 ounces w/ stakes), and a short therm-a-rest pad (14 ounces). That weekend I also left all my electronics at home (phone, gps, camera). Although I enjoyed the simplicity of the weekend I couldn't imagine that kind of minimalism on long tour. In fact on my next two long tours (Alaska-2011 & Newfoundland-2012) I reverted to my 35 lb base weight.

I have enjoyed nun's and your posts over the years, but I'm still not convinced that ultralight is right for me on a tour longer than a couple of weeks.

It may not be, it isn't for everyone on every tour.

The longest I have gone U/L was 33 days and I didn't see any desire to carry more cropping up during that time. Perhaps it might if I was going much longer, but to be honest 3 months is probably as long as I have any desire to tour at one time and for that I think I would be fine. Then again it might depend on locale, mood, and style/theme/focus of the trip.

On the evangelizing of folks met on tour thing... I think a bit of evangelizing either way (heavy or light) is fine as long as it isn't judgmental or too pushy. I had some nice discussions about weight carried with folks carrying very heavy loads. Some were very happy with their strategy and a few were seeking advice on how they could go lighter. I have noticed that the folks on the heavy side of the argument are more likely to be sensitive about the issue so I typically do not broach the subject unless they bring it up first.

The evangelism is ironic. Whenever I've talked to "loaded tourers" they've been intrigued by my setup, particularly when I pitch the Contrail. I find that the amount you carry isn't nearly as popular a topic of conversation as the gradient of the road or good places to eat.

The main problem with ultralight for bicycles is you can't do dirt road touring in the vast and sparsely populated American west, which is where the bicycle truly comes into its own as the mechanical steed. Even in cool weather, you'll be needing to carry lots of water (like at least 10 liters). Ultralite backpacking makes more sense, since backpacking in the United States is at its best in places like the High Sierras or Colorado Rockies, where there is plenty of water. That being said, I do carry lightweight camping gear when bike touring, since I see no reason to carry unnecessary weight.

Eventually this will be used for light 3-4 day tours. I also have a severe-duty gravel-road bike for heavy touring.

2012 Pedal Force CX2

Carbon fiber frame and fork, size 59cm
Velocity A23/Shimano 105 32-spoke wheelset, 23mm wide rim for tires up to 700x35
Shimano 105 triple crank, 50, 39 & 26t chainrings
Sram 11-32 ten speed cassette
Shimano Deore rear derailler, 105 front deraillier, Shimano 105 brifters for triple

The bike has 425mm long chainstays and two attachment eyes for a rear rack and fender.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l.../IMG_09601.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l.../IMG_09611.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l.../IMG_09621.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l.../IMG_09631.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l.../IMG_09651.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l.../IMG_09661.jpg

An Ortleib IS the kitchen sink.
When I spilled some pesto in mine, I filled it full of warm water and detergent and scrubbed away.

I'm trying to pare down from my full on Norwegian expedition kit back down to fair weather, non-cooking minimalist so this is a useful thread for me. Over time I seem to add kit rather than eliminate it.

Not sure why you think you can't dirt road tour ultralight in the American West. Maybe it is a matter of semantics. Do you not consider it U/L if packing 12 pounds of gear and 10 pounds of water?

Lots of folks do what I would consider ultralight touring on trails or dirt roads in the American west. That is pretty much what the Great Divide Mountain Bike route and other off road bike routes are all about. Ditto the whole bike-packing trend. I guess it depends on the route, but I personally don't want to tour anywhere that I have to go more than a day and a half without some source of water in any case. I have been a few places where I went a day between water sources and I never carried 10 liters of water even in extreme heat.

Nice looking bike.

A few years back I decided to reduced my touring weight in both equipment and bicycle. I pared my base weight to about 20 lbs, and reduced my bicycle weight by 7 lbs. I realize I wasn't ultralight but this was a substantial reduction of around one third, versus my previous tour. I did a 28 day tour with this rigging and enjoyed myself, but I did have some issues...

Bicycle:
6 flats, somewhat due to lighter weight tires
the road derailleur snagged on a branch while stealth camping and was damaged
the aluminum bike frame got a small dent when the bike accidentally fell over
I had a good bit of difficulty riding dirt/sandy/gravely back-roads on 32x700c tires

Solo Tent:
uncomfortable and cramped on rainy days off
inconvenient because some equipment remained outside

Small Kitchen:
I carried only a small pot and a spoon
I ate less healthy because I ate more convenience store & fast food
I spent a lot of my time stopping for food because I carried less
I spent more money on food

Less Clothing Layers:
This really wasn't a problem because the weather was hot.
This might have been a problem if the weather was more variable.

On the positive side I did experience an overall increase in my average speed because of the faster/lighter rigging. I feel that put the same effort as I did on any other tour on a daily basis.

After my tour I reflected on the "cost-benefit" of my changes and calculated that if I did the tour with my old setup it would have taken two extra days. My next tour I switched back to a LHT, big tent, "full" kitchen, more clothes/layers.

DISCLAIMER: This is my anecdotal, personal, and subjective experience. YMMV

Credit card touring, baby! The ultimate in ultralight touring.

Extra gear to make you comfortable? I dunno, my hammock with bug net is about 20 oz, my tarp is under 12oz including lines/stakes, and then I have a quilt/sleeping bag and a sleeping mat, same as I'd have on the ground. Sure there are one-person tent/bivy solutions for the ground that are under 32 oz, but all expensive. And you can get way lighter hammock setups than that - my rainfly is very generous in size, and using mosquito netting instead of no-seeum netting would save a bunch of ounces.

It also seems to me like hammock forums.net is mostly populated by large, heavy guys. I'm one of the skinny ones but I feel out of place there.

Still, if hammocks aren't comfortable for you, then they may not just be for you. But they often do take a bit of dialing in to be really comfortable. And I think they're worth trying for everybody.

That raises a question. Are you saying that the 23mm measurement is the limiting factor in tire size? Or is it the fork/frame? I am assuming the latter, but if the former I'd say that I wouldn't hesitate to run a much wider tire on that rim. Back in my MTB racing days everyone was running 2.1" tires on RM17 rims. They were 16.2mm inner bead width and 22mm outside width.

I forget all of the rationale, but back then folks were switching from wider RM20s to RM17s even with the widest regular MTB tires of the time. I am still am happily running RM17s on two MTB wheelsets with 2.1" tires.

I just had to post this so no-one thinks I can't tour light when needed... after all, the essence of randonneuring is "fast touring", and you sure don't want to be overloaded to maintain a 15km/h average over 600km or 11.5km/h over 1200km of what can be very challenging terrain! :D

This picture was taken at the half-way point of the Paris-Brest-Paris 1200km randonnee in 2003. That little green Sea to Summit drysack on the rear rack is still doing duty as the place for Machka's down jacket. I had a handlebar bag on the front, and under the S2S bag is a reflectorised red tarp.

Inside the S2S bag was my down bag, a jacket and a pair of leggings... that was about it.

The second picture is of our Ti bikes during a CC tour of Vancouver Island about this time last year. Weather was a key factor, and of course, no tent nor sleeping and cooking gear.

I tried hard to pack appropriately. I had one pair of socks for sleeping and one for being on the bike. During the day, I wore UA boxers to keep down chafe, and my night boxers went unused since my long merino wool underwear was comfortable by itself. There's an item I could have left behind! But I didn't!

Here's where my problems come up, though:

1. I brought a fleece sleeping bag liner and a thermolite silk liner. I also brought a fleece jacket that I only used at night to keep me warm. I only had to use all three one time, but when I did, I really needed them... (top of Mt. Hurricane, NH). Switching to a down bag will cost me $250, but the weight savings, space savings, and flexibility of a bag that is warm enough for all night conditions makes ultralighting in this case, expensive and pseudo-necessary. My current setup takes up 2x the weight and 3x the space as a single down bag.

Hmm....




No. Swimming all day, which is what most distance swimmers do, burns 14,000 calories. While swimming, a support boat throws out high-calorie energy shakes every 45 minutes and only manages to replace about 6,000 calories. Most long-distance swimmers are limited in that after a few days, their body starts to literally eat itself.

In photography circles, this is often called G.A.S., or Gear Acquisition Syndrome.


But just wait until they ask you for a photo ID, which you left behind to shave another few grams off the weight of your setup.

FIFY :thumb:

I don't think a hammock tent will necessarily be lighter than a tent, particularly if you're willing to spend the money for an ultralight tent. The reason I use a hammock is because I find it far and away more comfortable than any ground set-up I've tried. My set up could be lighter, but it's far lighter than the tents I've used in the past, but I know that there are ground tent set-ups out there that are even lighter than my hammock. But in many cases it seems like hammocks can be cheaper at the same weight as their ground counterparts. But then hammocks also have some special gear requirements that can add to the weight/expense. Some come with bug nets, but, if not, depending on your situation, you may need one. And at temperatures that you could get by with minimal insulation on the ground, you will be cold in the hammock as the air underneath just sucks the heat out. Some type of under insulation is generally required for even mildly cool temps, and, like most gear, the options are generally heavy, bulky, and cheap or light, compact, and expensive.

Problems setting up at campgrounds: I worry about that. But so far, with only a few dozen nights of camping, I have yet to be asked to take my hammock down nor have I failed to find a way to hang it up. But there have also been many cases where I haven't seen anyone from the campground between set-up and take-down time, so it may just be that I've been lucky and gone unnoticed in some places.

There have also been a few times when I really thought I'd end up on the ground and only determination and perhaps a little stupidity have allowed me hang.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270394
The distance between trees was at the edge of my rope length, and even reaching up as high as possible to attach the lines left the middle sagging too low, which is why I put a foam pad under my butt or else it would have been dragging on the ground.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270395
This worked pretty well, but it was hot up there.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270396
With all the trees in the area, I was surprised that I just couldn't find two that were the right distance. I spent the night waiting for this to fail and drop me on the ground, which never happened.

My overall gear is not ultra-light. I pared it down at one point to two large panniers and a dry bag on top, but I went back to four panniers because it seemed more versatile. But on my last mini tour, one whole pannier was given over to a cooler that would probably no place in most touring set ups, let alone an ultra light set up. But I enjoyed having it, and it's nice to know that I can cut my gear by 25% just by ditching the cooler.

This is getting a little off-topic...

Yes, the A23 rim could take a wider tire than 700x35. I have a 700x38 tires on another set of A23/Shimano wheels right now.

The frame is rated for 700x38, but I will use a 700x32 or 700x35 tires only.