To be fair I will say that have have met cyclists carrying 100 pounds or even more of stuff an enjoying the ride, long steep hills and all. I have also met folks who were really struggling badly with their load who had a lot of stuff that they really had no use for.

I also will confess that depending on my fitness level at the time I have struggled with the hills even when carrying a very light load. Still I rather deal with them with a light load than a heavy one.

The bottom line is that for those who like to carry the kitchen sink, I say more power to you. For those who think going light just might suit them, I say give it a try it probably will be more comfortable and convenient than you think. To those on either side who think their way is the one true way, I'd say get over yourself.

There's been some pretty good wisdom coming out this thread, and it doesn't have particularly to do with UL touring. This post is one that exemplifies this, and in particular, the last two sentences.

I think it would be fair to say that we have all gone through the "purist" period in our touring activities -- that every inch of road must be pedalled between point A and point B, and if you didn't do that, you were Satan's child not worthy of the congregation.

One of the things that this forum needs is balance. There are only so many threads on the merits of LHTs and their ilk that can be borne by the audience. There are only so many threads on crossing the US before it becomes a matter of saying "hey pal, look it up on the search function".

It's one of the reasons why Machka and I started to question some time ago the philosophy for this forum that bicycle touring means multi-week, cycling-only adventures. We felt that there had to be a balance -- that day tours, weekend tours, hub-and-spoke and multi-modal (ie, different transport mode) tours had as much merit, if not more than simple, linear, head-down, ride-at-all-costs, damn-the-comfort bike-only trips.

Threads like this one serve to give people time to think about how much stuff they actually carry, and what options they may have to lighten their load, and therefore improve their touring experience.

Like every other aspect of bicycle touring, it comes down to experimenting with loads and comfort levels on and off the bikes. Bek, nun, staephj1, asana, et al all are able to offer comment based on their experience which covers years -- nay decades -- experimenting with various items that may or may not have been successful in serving their function.

Good thread...

I'm amazed that people have missed the irony in the the use of the work "evangelism"......this is a hobby we are talking about. People need to relax a bit and smile. I like to cover my bases and have not camped at all on my last two extended tours while still carrying camping gear. That was a big mistake in Iceland as a less constrained schedule with camping would have allowed me to wait out the really bad weather days, but I had limited knowledge of the place and a limited amount of time and so failed to ride around RT1. When I recently toured MA, motels were available at the end of every day so I stayed in them, if I had not found one I would have camped. I have tested out my current camping gear with numerous S24O and S48O and have many years of camping with older and heavier stuff so I'm convinced of it's utility and post my setup and detailed gear list for anyone who would like to know about it. Here's a shot form my last S24O

http://wheelsofchance.files.wordpres...24-1651401.jpg

My reason for evangelizing dirt road bike touring is a selfish one. The more bicycle tourists, the more likely highways will have good shoulders and other accommodation will be made by society for cyclists. Cycling on paved roads next to fast-moving traffic is just plain unpleasant and dangerous and is unlikey to be more popular than it is now. But I a boom in dirt road touring in the western united states is quite possible. There's already been a boom in mountain biking n places like Moab. And the result is a proliferation of bike shops and other facilities for cyclists in that area. The police and other authorities tend to look favorably on cyclists in that area because they know they bring money into the economy. So evangelizing is not just about fanaticism. There are selfish reasons to evangelize.

"Everyone has their own way" is a cop-out. There are things that make sense and things that don't. If you want to encourage people to go bike touring, then you should be promoting a system that makes sense from the average person's perspective. A lot everything associated with bikes comes from Europe, and much of northern Europe is flat, wet, and densely populated, which may be why the traditional paradigm for bike touring is a road bike (since dirt roads would be too muddy in Northern Europe) loaded down with panniers to hold a huge tent (needed for privacy in crowded campgrounds of Northern Europe) and all kinds of junk (why not bring the kitchen sink, since weight doesn't hurt when traveling on the flat?). That paradigm won't no sense for dirt road touring where there are hills, so it makes sense to encourage lightening up. But flying to the other extreme of nothing but a tiny frame pack and no water capacity so you have to plan on 100 mile days in the desert is just going to turn most people off. If "everyone has their own way of doing things", then why does every motel in the United States have a bed and a seat toilet? Why not hammocks and squat toilets (which I'd prefer for health reasons)? Fact is, if you expect to get customers for a motel in the United States, then you have to accomodate the existing social norms of a bed and a seat toilet, that's all there is to it. Likewise, if you're evangelizing so as to encourage more bike touring, then you have to promote systems that ordinary people can relate to. Lightening up makes a lot of sense to ordinary people. Getting rid of cooking gear in favor of just carrying bread and cheese and other ready-to-eat foods from the grocery store also makes sense. Suggesting people sleep in a hammock, or simply flop down on the ground like a wandering Indian holy man with no tent or bug shelter, or to make their own stove from a discarded pepsi can, etc, etc, is just going to make people conclude that bike touring is for freaks and not ordinary people.

The desert is NOT unpopular, BTW, as a destination for tourists. On the contrary, it is a mecca for RV'ers. Google Quartzite, AZ for example. Or visit Death Valley in the winter. But almost no one is bike touring that area (other than on those dismal ACA paved road tiers). Probably because (as some of posting above indicate) most bike tourists just can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that 12 liters is MINIMAL water capacity for the desert, even in the colder winter months. You're not going to carry 12 liters in a frame or saddle bag. In other words, when someone evangelizes ultralight bike touring, they're basically ruling out the desert for bike touring and that's what bothers me. I like privacy on my desert tours, but I'd also rather see more people on bicycles and less on ATVs and motorbikes, so anything that discourages bike touring is bad from my point of view, and discouraging bike touring is exactly what I think ultralight is doing.

After years of lightweight packing trips, years. carrying just what was needed for a week all over the great outdoors I was amazed to discover that this same idea ever occured to me when touring. I would ride with front and rear panniers a rack bag and the kitchen sink. Now at 51 years old I have learned I can still carry the weight BUT it's much more enjoyable if I don't. Did my first overnighter on the Fargo Friday/Sat. I found a great spot about 15 miles from the house. All pine woods very nice, quiet to. The Fargo is fast becoming my go to carry stuff bike. I had the REI Solo I tent and the Thermarest. I was very comfy and had no trouble handling the trails into the area. A great time.

First off I very much agree about how it would be nice if there were less atvs and two strokes out destroying the desert. I was born and raised in the Mojave, and saw huge areas destroyed by atvs. its a fragile and wonderfull place. I did my first solo multi(three I think) day backpacking trip, at ten years old out into the desert, with a scrounged jcpenney pup tent, two refilled two liter pepsi bottles and one of the original Kelty backbacks. Bread, cheese and canned spam. Even though I no longer live there, I think of myself as a desert rat.

But I would have to travel hundreds of miles to get to the nearest desert now, and the area that I do live in is wet and muddy at times, and nothing like the desert. If I were to do a desert trip then yes, I would worry about taking 12+ liters, as well as gear that can handle the suprisingly cold nights. And so yes, I would have a rack with enough capacity to carry gobs of water. That would not effect my taking lighter gear.

If you want to encourage bike touring, possibly one way to do that is to understand that there are many places to bike tour other than your personal playground. Everyone should indeed have thier own way, one that fits the terrain and enviroment that they are touring in. Within 500 miles of my house I carry a water filter when taking backroads, mostly fire roads. And usualy I do it on a 28mm tire, because that is my preference, although I have been known to strap on some 32s.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7074/7...782b72ac_h.jpg
I took over 100 miles of fire roads on some severe hills on this trip. around 300 of pavement. Could it carry 12 liters of water? No, but if I needed to I would have either put a rack on it, or taken a bike that has racks.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8319/7...f2a59277_h.jpg
You seem to be saying that some sort of standardized touring platform should be espoused, while also saying that the reason for that is that there is really only one place that people should be encouraged to tour, or at least basing your thoughts on touring on a southwestern-ocentric template. I might be wrong, but thats the way it seems to come across.

You cross the line from sharing your experience to evangelizing when you fail to recognize that your way is not the only acceptable way of touring. I don't mind carrying a cookset just to have a hot cup of coffee in the morning. Could I save a pound? Sure, but I'd rather have the coffee. I'm not giving up everything just to travel light. If I was carrying all my gear on my back, elimination of weight would be more important. If the terrain was mountainous, the same would apply. Depending on each person's preferences and where they are touring, a different set up would be perfectly reasonable. Lots of good ideas here, and one should always strive to eliminate unnecessary weight, but what constitutes "unnecessary" varies with each individual.

Just thought I would also mention that this is a pretty interesting thread, and i have gotten some ideas from it. That Kifaroo Woobie that Asana mentioned might just be on my wish list.

And on the Hammock thing, to answer Rowan about the couples issue, the answer for me at least is that if I were to take a longish tour with a person I was close to, it would be a joint choice of what gear to take. I personaly do think that a tent would be in order, though they do make lightweight hammocks that can hold 400 pounds. I don't mind a cuddle, and that is what you would get in a hammock, but it would probably get tiresome fast. For now, I have a large marmot that has two doors and two vestibules, and is about five pounds. Its a palace to me, but works well with two, with extra room for some one who likes to travel with more personal comfort items than I do.

Thanks, great answer in the context of what we are talking about.

I have to agree even though their has been a bit of posturing...not much in my opinion, I have to say I have picked up some interesting thoughts to try after I get home from my first bike trip/family visit. I'm not UL on this trip due to the family visit and thinking of some weight saving concepts too late to be able to due anything about them.

I won't use bug spray...I'm not carrying any with me. Since I've been travelling from New England to the Mississippi River roundtrip I should be in bug country. I actually haven't had much trouble setting up/tearing down camp and I've slept under the stars twice and left the tent in the backpack. I'm not using the hammock I use 7 days a week at home(and have used for 6-7 years every night at home...boy I sure miss the comfort of it, the ground just isn't anywhere near as comfortable). I have to say other than the first and most recent night I haven't been camped out at a spot where I could have set up a hammock. I do admit I have been looking more just for sites knowing I had the tent to work with then looking at hammock specific sites. I'm using an age old one man tent(Eureka Zephyr) that I used on my AT thru-hike in '97. I'm even using the same backpack I used in '97 for the bike trip. Since I'm riding a Specialized Allez I can't really use normal racks and didn't want to spend the money so I'm just using my backpack to carry everything. Other than being a bit more stressful on the legs and butt I actually I don't mind the pack at all.

I know I definitely want to lose the weight. My laptop is the first thing to go as it is the biggest weight item I'm carrying right now. I'm guessing it's between 6-7 pounds of the 35-38 pounds(not including food/water/handlebar bag(food/water) contents that I'm carrying). Considering I'm using a computer program I've written myself...hence the reason for the carrying the laptop, I have to get the program setup so I can run it on any library computer than I can put it on a flash card and eliminate the laptop.

I just have to get smart and stop trying to ride 120-130 miles a day. Granted being time pushed on both of the first two stages of this trip thus far has created the need to do 120-130 miles a day and even one day where I ended up riding 172 miles. I think route choice also makes a big difference. So far on this trip their hasn't been much of a reason for stopping anywhere so I've not really had anything to do but to keep riding. I do need to wake up and learn better trip planning.

getting ones' kit dialed enough to stay in hotels is what bothers me the most about this thread. why not vacuum pack the gear, or simply bring a foil emergency blanket?

Posture about 'pack like this' rankles me, because it is either

a: a sufferfest not worth convincing anyone it's sane - asana's friends thinks he camps like an animal, didn't he say?

Please don't get me wrong. I've been there. I know what sleeping in the dirt in a parka wearing a headnet entails. Sometimes, i actually enjoy it. But i'm not going to endorse it as the enlightened way to go bike touring.

b: an exercise in extreme minimalism that is inordinately impractical for most people; or

c: something not really being done with the gear in question. see vacuum pack suggestion above.

I honestly can't recommend people try packing for a tour without a rack. the volume limitations are simply too extreme. they'll have to try and figure out that on their own.


the gear volume limitations,the skill set, the self-denial is simply too great for the vast majority, the vast majority of people.

it's like suggesting people go out on their bikes and not enjoy themselves!

but if people have gotten to this place on their own, more power to you. but i think its misguided to recommend the methodology to others.

I really do not think that is true.

First... All routes in the desert do not require carrying 12 liters. While I am not a big fan of desert riding, I have crossed a good bit of desert and have never carried as much as 12 liters of water. Granted I was the road routes either on an AC route or riding parallel to one, but none the less I crossed eastern Oregon on the TA, crossed the entire southern tier desert areas on the AC ST or paralleling it, and crossed the Mojave on the Sierra Cascades route as well.

Second... Ultralight refers to base weight. It is still ultralight touring even when you have to add water or food for long sections without services. I could add the capacity to carry a lot of food and water on my U/L rig. I personally prefer to choose routes where I can get food or water every 24 hours or so if possible. That said it is entirely possible to have an ultralight setup that can expand water carrying capacity for those few sections that required more than a day of water.

You could put one of those little (10 ounce) nashbar racks in the front of your bike and easily add another 10 liters or more of water there. That in addition to the water you are already carrying in the bottle cages, in the rear bag, and on your back. Heck in a pinch I have carried 4 liters in my jersey pockets.

Since for me at least the long sections without services are never going to be more than a small portion of the whole tour, loading up on those sections does not mean that I can't be pretty unladen for most of the tour.

+1

:roflmao: ONE liter of water weighs a kilogram.

I have used nashbar mini front racks, and also carried 10 liter pigs of water on a bike. assuredly, 10 liters of water won't fit on a mini front rack! and if you did somehow manage to strap over 20 pounds of water to a front rack, your bike would handle like a drunken ox.

Now, i think staeph has an impressively minimalist setup, but the suggestion to put 10 liters of water on a mini front rack is a great example of misguided UL evangelism.

Beautiful pics, shipwreck. Buffalo River? If so, the road that's shown with the bluffs in the background wouldn't happen to be Spring Creek Rd. would it?

I don't date. Ultralight.

Would touring without the spouse or significant other be described as "unencumbered touring"?

I wish dating was sub-$30 a day...

I am afraid that that road is actualy an access road to the Steel Creek campground, on the Buffalo. I did not get many pics on that trip, I always forget, unless I have a flat:cry:
The fire roads did not really have that great of scenery anyway. Just a lot of dust, getting lost, and getting thousands of seed ticks on me when filtering water! not a good time to bust out the camera.
That was an interesting trip, because the tires I was using were 27-1/4 bells from wall mart. Road like bricks, but no flats.

I'm surprised that this thread rankles you and obviously I don't agree with the characterizations of your post. I do take offense at the bold in your post. I have used my current equipment on numerous 2 and 3 day trips during the past couple of years and so I feel confident in it's practicality for 3-season touring in places with regular resupply possibilities. I do not advocate minimalism such as no cooking equipment or just a tarp with an emergency blanket as I would be very uncomfortable with so little. I do advocate using lightweight equipment to make the cycling more fun while having a comfortable camp setup. It continues to amaze me that such a pleasant hobby as bicycle touring can produce such unpleasant posts.

I was going to say, this thread is literally nothing more than a casual request for pictures and thoughts. How can anyone be upset? Why does it have to come down to a conversation on whether or not you're being converted?

Jeeze, I did not know that there are puristy nit pickers on the subject of how anyone chooses to travel by bike. Oh well, as mdilthey says, here are some thoughts on this.

I have gotten hotel rooms on two day trips that are mostly riding to friends places anywhere around 150-200 some miles away. That is when I started getting interested in light touring, mailing clothing in a flat rate box ahead of me to wear while doing other things. And I had camping gear, just in case I did not make the hotel, or if it was closed, or whatever. After a long day it was nice to have a room and a shower. I usualy camped on the way back, or in one case when I did not make the miles I had planned.

And I have gotten rooms on longer tours as well. It really sucks to manhandle a bike with four bags into an elevator at a hotel.
It is a lot nicer to wheel a bike with minimal baggage into a room.

If the states had a decent rail system, I would absolutely travel with my bike, staying at hostels and motels, sight seeing, visiting friends and museums and camping when the mood hit or it was needed. And if that was my plan, it makes a lot of sense to have a light load. The idea would be Traveling or Journeying with a bicycle rather than just having the goal of "bicycle touring".

I was going to go on a two week tour to celebrate my birthday, leaving last week. It was to be the lightest I have attempted, with 14 pounds, including a stove for cooking and clothes for the St Louis art museum and a train ride to Kansas City, and the Museum there, then riding four hundred miles home. I had planned on some hotel nights in the citys, and eating at some nice places. Also cooking out and stealth camping at night. BUT, as I am sidelined right now with a broken collar bone from getting knocked of my bike right in my home town, I am spending all my time on this forum, trying really hard to say what I think nicely.

I have no idea. I'm into the idea of lightweight (maybe not properly ultralight) touring, and also hammocks, and I like to enthusiastically recommend those things to anybody who'll listen, both because I like to talk about my setup and because my experience has been that those things made camping, backpacking, bike traveling, etc., way more enjoyable for me, and I like the thought of introducing someone to an idea that does the same for them. That's all there is to it. It doesn't bother me to see someone lugging a 50-pound backpack along a trail if that works for them, or on the other extreme, sleeping in rainstorms on a thin mat under a small tarp.

The only reason I can think of to get upset about the matter of how much weight you carry and how you tour is when it ceases to be just their business and becomes yours. I.e. if a friend and I were to undertake a cross-USA tour, and I was using a lightweight bikepacking setup while he used a four-panniers plus stuff on top of the racks, very heavy setup because he didn't want to spend money. Yes, it's his business, but the fact that he's struggling more and moving slower affects my trip as well. It's a hypothetical situation, but the only one wherein I can see it mattering to me how much someone else carries.

Cool....A lot of those access roads leading to the river look very similar. Years ago, my wife and I bought some acreage on Spring Creek Rd (which is downstream from your pics) which adjoined the National Park Land. We were still over a half mile from the river, but it was beautiful. We had a small camper trailer that we permanently parked there, and spent a lot of weekends up there. I used to ride mountain bikes on the dirt roads in the area, which, as you know, involved a lot of steep hills. It was a great way to see deer and wild turkeys, you could fly along on your bike in relative quiet, and the wildlife wouldn't know you were there until you were upon them. The number of turkeys in our area was pretty amazing.

As time passed, the population along the road increased dramatically, and our schedules didn't allow us to make the drive and enjoy the Buffalo nearly as often as we did when we were younger adults. And the place just wasn't the same as it was when we first bought the land; basically a small town sort of grew up along the road, where there was practically no one just a few years before. Nothing wrong with that, but it wasn't what we were after for our weekend retreats. Also, the value of the land increased pretty dramatically, so we sold it. Oh well, life goes on.......But I do love the Buffalo!

I used that same rack on the rear of the bike last trip and it is a solid little rack. It is solid enough that I wouldn't hesitate to carry all of my gear on it. Would I carry 20 pounds of water on it every day for a 3 month tour? No. Would I carry 20 pounds of water on it for the first day of a two day dry section on a multi-month tour? Yes, if I had to. I probably never will though since even in the arid southwest I have never carried that much water. I am pretty sure I will never choose a route that requires carrying multiple days of water for more than a section here or there if even that.

It isn't like I am going to go touring where I need to carry 10 liters every day. The fact is that I have crossed the Mojave twice; once W-E and once S-N and have never needed to carry that much water. I also crossed some other pretty arid regions and I think in all that the farthest I have ever gone without a chance to top off the water was only 80 miles.

In any case the water that is carried in the least comfortable place would be used first so the weight carried in places like jersey pockets or on a front rack would be used early on. Every stop, I topped off the frame bottles until the weight is gone from my pockets. I would do the same for the water on the front rack.

If I remember correctly, on the Southern Tier the most I carried was the two large bottles in the cages on the frame and 4 liters in two jersey pockets (a 2 liter sports drink bottle in each pocket). On hind sight I would rather have had the extra bottles in my little Flash 18 backpack than in Jersey pockets, but it worked fine. I dry camped that night and didn't use any water to wash me or my cook pot, but that wasn't a huge hardship. So I guess I am unlikely to find out what it is like to carry 20 pounds of water on the front rack.