I think most of us completely agree with that. While I do promote going lighter I recognize that some folks happily go to the opposite extreme that I do.

OK, but even at 10 pounds of gear I have a stove and a pot. A cook set is part of most of the ultralight gear lists I have seen and is definitely part of all of my lists. My minimal list that came in at 8 pounds even had my regular cook set in it. There is no reason that you can't go ultralight and have coffee.

My cook set has weighed anywhere from 10 ounces to a pound depending on whether I take my water filter and cup.

BTW, the 8 pound list has not been used because I do like a few extras like a nicer camera with an extra lens, a pillow, and a pair of trail running shoes if there will be a lot of hiking.

Good point, I don't think I would have bothered to go nearly as light if touring in the flat lands, but I think there was only one tour that I did that didn't have at least one mountain pass and even that one had a lot of climbing. The thing is that once I got used to going light, I found it comfortable enough that I tend to take mostly the same stuff even when going on a car camping trip to visit a nearby state high point or whatever.

I have used this setup on a couple of short trips.http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270810http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270811 I recently ordered a Swift Industries Large Trunk Saddle Bag to use on my Monstercross bike with a small Ortlieb Bag up front.

One of the things that blows my mind is what a family will bring on an overnight camping trip. Full sized gas BBQs, about fifty lawn chairs, stereos, a seperate awning, fifty or so assorted footballs, frisbys, and sporting gear, and so much more.


Interestingly, I find that these people will be more interested, or at least approach you and ask questions, when I am fully loaded with a tent, and full bags. When I have only a bivy or tarp, and the rackless bags, no one much asks anything(one mountain biker asked me about my trip, but that was to ask about riding on the hiking trails). Just an observation, and only based on ten or so campgrounds, but I find it of note.

I think that that is a cool looking rig. A light bike is neat, but that LHT looks like you could go around the world like that. My heavy tourer is an old Univega Gran Turismo, and I have no problem with the idea of a 28 pound bike carrying a light load. It is like taking the old Buick roadmaster instead of the Alpha. The ride is solid and relaxing, IMHO.
A lot of folks would ask about center of gravity, with the wisdom being to get the load low. While I agree with that, I have found that with practice a load that high is something that you just get used to, and the wind resistance is a little lower.

I just looked at it again, and that is a realy cool looking set up. I like the look of everything all strapped on like that.

It's called Keeping Up with the Joneses. Quite the sport, but expensive.

In one of the campgrounds in Europe, we saw a catalogue for RVs and "camping" (which isn't really anymore the sort of camping like we are discussing). It was thick, very thick, and was laden with all the latest and greatest.

We don't get asked what we are doing over here. There are many others who appear to be touring, and we are just another couple of bicycle riders coming through the gate.

We do, however, get asked where we are from, which leads on to details about what we are doing.

Just to keep the interest a bit alive, but has anyone experimented with carbon fibre for things like small panniers?

I've been thinking as I have been riding over here that a mould can be made of the kitty-litter bins, and an ultralightweight version created. I like working with fibreglass, and epoxy resin isn't that hard to work with, so CF doesn't seem to be that much of a leap.

The resulting bins would be light, useful as seats (as the kitty litter bins are) and robust for travel.

Any thoughts?

You are much kinder than me. I think of it as a form of Idiocracy.

Speaking of the movie Idiocracy, I recently checked that movie out at my library. When I took it out of the case, it appeared to have peanut butter smeared all over the disk.

A couple of years ago I was camping at a state park. I'd just finished some couscous and was onto my fig newtons and tea while looking into the fire I'd built with wood I'd collected from around the site when the family next door asked me to come over and join them. They had the camper van set up and the picnic table was straining under a grocery store of food, cups and plates. They were very interested in my tent and Trangia stove and I think they took pity on me because I was alone and had a pretty small fire when compared the the blaze they had going. I got a couple of hot dogs, some beer (illegal in state parks) and some good conversation out of it. Nice folks!

I never really thought of myself as an "ultralight" traveler, but this thread motivated me to check the weight of my normal load.
This weighs in at around 20lbs. Just under 7 lbs per bag.
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270833
There's a lot of room to cut also. That is carrying a two burner stove, 2 man tent and fleece sleeping bag. After looking through some of the products mentioned on this thread, I could save 5 lbs or more with a hammock, different sleeping bag, and cookware. Hmm. Got me thinkin'

Marc

as a reference:

its not uncommon for a Tour Divide MTB complete with shelter and food for at leas 3 days, to weigh about 40lbs. complete bike, water, food, et al

Note that the title of this thread is "Ultralight Evangelism" not "Ultralight how-to".

Here is a fine anecdote from my recent tour. I was discussing bike touring in the Lassen area with the owner of a bike shop and commented that it was strange that there were so many people hiking the PCT this year, but apparently no one but me bike touring the Lassen area. Having section hiked the PCT in this area area myself in July, and then returning to bike tour the area in August, I was able to give an apples-to-apples comparison of the two activities, and bike touring was the hands-down winner. The only time I could see hiking would be better, in that area, would be in cold weather (because I dread the idea of fixing a flat or otherwise working on the bike with freezing hands). And then I noted that, basically, all I did to switch from hiking to bike touring was strap my camping gear (which is lightweight though no ultralight, at about 12 pounds including pack but not including food or water) to a bicycle. Having tried backpacking himself, he agreed that biking was much more enjoyable, especially in the heat, and he thought that dirt road touring might be the "next big thing" as he put it. And then, the next thing I know, he was flipping through some catalog of frame bags and how everyone was talking about huge saddle bags, and maybe it would be great to tour with a Surly Troll, etc, etc. I know he's in the business of selling gear, but making things this complex and then going to the extreme of using nothing but a frame and huge saddle bag rather than standard panniers and also pushing a special bike rather than just the mountain bikes people already own is just guaranteed to ensure that none of the locals will be able to engage in bike touring because it is making things too expensive and complicated. And if the alternative to all this expense and complication is the old paradigm of a road bike loaded to the gills with barbeque grills and whatnot, that also won't work on the rugged dirt roads with plenty of 2000 foot ascents.

Meanwhile, the bikepacking.net site has been co-opted by the ultralight crew and, for reasons I don't understand, we have a situation whereby there are now two primary paradigms for bike touring. Either: (a) road bike loaded to the gills with panniers riding on paved roads with high-speed traffic whizzing past; (b) suspension MTB with ultralight gear carried in handlebar/frame/saddle bags riding predominately on single-track. Whereas a simple bike with fat tires and standard rear panniers (plus front panniers if you need the water capacity) and riding on dirt roads is just completely ignored. Too simple, too much like a utility cargo bike, or the single-speed bikes we used to ride back in the 1960's which had those steel baskets in the rear for carrying school books.

I think this two-paradigm situation is unfortunate and is part of why there are so few people on dirt roads, which to me is where the action is. Regardless of whether you think single-track is great or not (I fail to see the appeal myself for bicycles), there's no question that dirt roads is where you get by far the most options. There are tons of dirt roads in the United States and always will be. There is only a tiny amount of single-track. Even under the most optimistic circumstances, the single-track network will continue to be small well into the future.

So this is my last on the subject. I have nothing against ultralight gear and have backpacked with ultralight gear myself in the past, though I've since gone back to merely lightweight. (Incidentally, if you want true expert advice about ultralight camping gear, hang out in the backpacking forums.) But I see it as unfortunate that people get excited about evangelizing ultralight bike touring rather than evangelizing dirt road bike touring, since that is where the real growth potential lies, IMO.

Thanks..comfy buicks are nice.

the notion that a person "would" be able to haul ten liters of water on a mini front rack is overly optimistic bordering on far-fetched. the physical size and weight of ten liters of water for all practical purposes precludes using a mini front rack to haul it with any degree of confidence.

I hauled a cinder block on a mini front rack on gravel roads once- sheared the rack at one of the canti bolts in less than 20 minutes.

I do think you have a very refined UL kit, staeph. But there ARE limitations to what light gear allows. it's not always a sound strategy for the task, and isn't for most people.

I find it interesting how the volume in Irwin's gear setup at 20 pounds http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270833 doesn't look that different volume wise than iforgotmename's http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=270810.

Nun's setup for hotel camping is over 20 pounds of gear.

there's a certain amount of gear needed to stay comfortable while camping out with a bike. it's reducible, but only to a certain degree, or you start leaving things out.

there is no escaping the volume demands of gear. the average high performance fleece jacket (haven't carried one in years because of their low compressibility to warmth ratio) is between two and three liters.

A rider also can't escape the unwieldy weight and size of water for that matter. I'm not as eloquent as revelo on this matter, but i share some of his very reasoned criticisms of the UL loopthink.

here's a piece of entertainment
a soap box rant if you will.

----------------------------------------------------------------


no doubt that water is the heaviest issue.

as to clothing, of course depending on the weather, something like a fleece jacket is really something that pretty much belongs in a closet or the back of the car.

for instance a Kifaru Parka packs down pretty small. About 1/2 the size of small water bottle.

even better is a wool jersey and wool base layer, simply because you don't have to pack it, but instead wear it.
I had to laugh to myself when it was only in the last 5 years that I've been turned onto wool.

of course there are infinite rants about wool.

in my experiences, I've worn it anywhere from 95F to 27F.

some of the most bulky items that I've yet to completely figure out is rain gear.
i'm thinking this year I will try some Castelli NanoFlex.

in favorable conditions, 20lbs of gear is a lot of stuff.
personally, if I'm carrying 20lbs of gear, that better include about a week's worth of food.

undoubtedly at this point in our collective evolution
we being in the shadow of man's most successful meme...
the automobile
of course we have completely forgotten where we come from
instead we believe that comfort is sitting in a chair
a freaking chair of all things!

the first thing we teach our kids is to sit down and be still

we have collectively domesticated ourselves, addicted to these memes
to the extent
that we carry a crazy chair on bicycle tour
sit at park benches and dream of big screen tv's and a lazy boy.

red is the new blue

comfort is totally relevant to how we interact with the world. do you go from chair to chair?
do we walk on pre-designated surfaces?
have we accustomed our reach to match that of standardized heights and widths?
have we stopped negotiating walking thru a doorway? have we adjusted to the standard rise and run of a set of stairs?

however, how we arrive at Komfort
is purely up to us as individuals

how about having some skill
how about learning how to sit.
how about learning what the earth feels between the toes
when was the last time we were connected to REALITY
to the Real World
to the earth
to the actual soil
not barefoot in along a gutter

but barefoot on bare earth
when did we last sit on the ground

at this moment, how many layers separates us from the real world.

for me, its a pair of crocs, a layer of carpet, a house...
a house of all things.
a box of of sticks, huddled inside, typing out this jargon thru cyber space... pathetic

and why are we comfortable or not comfortable in our Natural environment(s)

The Bicycle is this beautiful machine that allows a person to explore their world

I haven't owned a car for over 10yrs now
of course I ride to and from work
I ride every day
to paraphrase, "the church of bike" is my religion. (well sort of. you get the gist)
but instead of simply evangelizing and mandating a doctrine, blind faith
it is up to each of us, to experience and endeavor to that truth, to that unique space, to our own sanctuaries.

this is the problem.
we have been programed, and addicted to instant gratification.
change the channel NOW!
or
stay tuned.

BLUE IS THE NEW RED

go out and buy the new "blue" fuel canisters.


UL touring IS touring
all the clutter is the same freaking clutter thats the kanker in most households
its the mold in the corners of our minds
its all the crap that we long to purge
it is... another meme
its more crap
rocks
yes... you are carrying around bags of rocks!
if you don't use it, its a rock!

you may as well carry an oil derek, an entire menagerie, a plethora of implements of destruction, an ax, an adz, a wedge, a floor jack, a FLOOR PUMP! and extra wheel! extra handle bars, bars of soap. and I mean BARS OF SOAP, may as well... carry it all.
its all there, in the dark corners of our collective minds.
when we can not escape the shadow of the worlds most successful meme, the auto mobile
when we acquiesce our rights to the road
when we give up our freedom
when we volunteer
and relinquish nature

its over
surely its over

you can't sell the air
you can't sell the water

and a chair?
honestly! a freaking CHAIR!

pathetic
sad
devoid

sit down!
enjoy the world
watch trout
see salmon
watch elk
marvel at bears

so what... a freaking bug
honestly
its not like its a freaking blow fly
and if it is... gee guess what, at least we've already done lernt about all that
we lernt about every detail along our upcoming journeys route while we enumerate each turn, and note every coffee shop along the way...

the more you know
the more adaptable you are
the less you carry
the less you carry
the less you care
the less you care
the more open the world has become
the more open the mind
more open to experience

honestly... did I just book that vacation, complete with zip line adventure, spa treatments, and dam it... the freaking ahi better be good.

First of all, it depends upon your definition of dirt roads. If you meant like extreme 4x4 trails in mountainous terrain with no cell communication and requiring you to have skills in navigation and survival plus advanced first aid, then yes you won't see a lot of riders do this. You need to have those skills first before you venture out or you'll be SOL when you're stuck. Most people won't carry a SPOT. There are clearly documented cases that even drivers who use GPS to go out of bounds into 4x4 trails eventually got themselves killed. Just last year, a Canadian couple got themselves lost in the 4x4 trails while going to Las Vegas. Or perhaps, you missed those news? One got rescued after she was barely hanging on to her dear life and her husband is missing or basically presumed dead. Going off-road is fun ONLY if you know what you're doing. The majority of cycle tourists who do this don't even have a clue how to read maps nor do they even know where the sun rises or sets. If these basic navigational skills are lacking, how are they going to fare in the woods?

Most people will go off-road in controlled and well defined trails. I see them all the time like the Idaho Panhandle National Forest's route of the Hiawatha is one of the popular destinations for rail trail beds cycling and hiking. The Kettle Valley trails in Canada are well known and ridden. It's off-road and some sections can be really rough. The Trans rockies are also rough too, though I know someone who did that with a single speed MTB -- now talk about light weight touring.
You don't go off-road without a clue of where you're going and the ability to read and navigate with a compass, topo maps and then GPS. This is the main reason why even drivers don't usually go off-road on 4x4 trails without a clue of what they're doing unless they were misled by their dumb Garmin GPS!

People tour light these days because the gears are better. Technology had provided choices for these people to go light weight and most people nowadays are buying gear to be used for the long haul. They are basically buying the best. People don't change gears as often as they do in the past, so it's not uncommon for people to basically buy gear at REI, try it and then return it back for another. It's common.

To summarize this. Off-road touring will only become more appealing if the trails are well marked, well documented and easily to follow. The reason cross country mountain biking of the early 80s to 90s had died was because people realized that it takes "special skills" to ride proficiently in rough terrain. Same with off-road touring. Backcountry biking has always been reserved to the most experienced and well navigated outdoors men. No one wants to rescue an ill equipped hiker or biking in rough wooded or 4x4 trails and puts their own lives at risk. I think for people who do this for the "Bravado" every winter season on the ski slopes or high in the alpines is being selfish themselves. They did about what they can brag after they did their stunt, but hope someone will rescue them if they got themselves in trouble.

Marc,

I just upgraded my stove and I know have a portable one with 3 pots and a canister all fit into one neat package. It's really light and pots are made with light weight titanium, but the good thing was it didn't cost me any money. It was supposed to be $30 for all on sale, but the cashier charged me more and their policy was no mistakes on final price. Well they did make a mistake, and I got it for free. Sweet.

Speaking of which, your setup is what a typical setup I see now with a lot of tourists. In fact, the young lady on the Nishiki International had the same exact setup on the photo. Not too heavy, but not ultralight and still keep a somewhat aero profile. But here's the question. Are you going to benefit from a 5lbs savings? Perhaps.
But I think the concept of light touring benefit will benefit those whose base touring weight is hovering around 30 to 80lbs where substantial weight savings can be made.

there are about 40,000 automobile related fatalities per year.
arguably it is safer being deployed into a combat zone than it is to operate a motor vehicle here stateside.

given that reading a map is a skill set
about as difficult as figuring out a paycheck.
and granted that being able to start a fire when needed is also a skill set
along with being able to source water, and knowing when to change to cold weather clothing
or how many calories to take in per hour.

mtb vs road
old argument
but here's a relative example.
Cadel Evans: MTB to Road. thats an outdated example. more than a decade in the process.

Civil development:
Boy Scouts
when did we quit encouraging kids to be Boy Scouts?
Military:
when did we quit providing a basic duty to country?

boy scouts learn how to tie knots.

"Are you smarter than a 6th Grader?"

how about.

are you as proficient as a Boy Scout?

wow... seriously? don't know how to read a map, dont know how to source water, ride a bicycle in the dirt? wow.
next we don't know how to split wood.

again... we've voluntarily given up our freedoms, and have acquiesced to a pre-scribe route.

fear not.

there is hope.

the great outdoors await.

being a proficient mountain biker should be everyone's foundation.

being comfortable in the dirt, makes the smooth life of asphalt that much more luxurious.

being able to bunny hop a hazard should be easy
along with going over a curb
a track stand in traffic should be as easy as clocking in

an interesting thing about significant change
is that
most people simply don't convert
rather they die off
and the next generation simply adapts the paradigm as a norm.

endless examples: kerosine vs electricity, horse vs automobile, slide rule vs calculator, email vs snail mail, typing vs writing, multi-lingual vs (gee... I only know 1 language). oh! how about this one. SAE vs Metric! wow.

I don't think Mountain Biking has died.
here's a relavent example:
http://www.nationalmtb.org
and
http://www.norcalmtb.org

of note:
[h=2]Mission Statement[/h]The NorCal High School Cycling League works to establish and maintain quality high school mountain bike programs. The League is responsible for establishing a climate that will:

• Provide students who have the desire to mountain bike with the coaching and camaraderie that will help them achieve both competitive and non-competitive cross-country mountain biking goals in a safe and enjoyable manner;
• Develop an awareness of what it is to be an amateur athlete that is both gracious and respectful to their community;
• Create an environment in which they may discover new friendships and find role models;
• Guide students towards learning new skills and disciplines, and spread the foundations of mountain bike racing across the U.S.;
• Foster a responsible attitude toward the use of trails and wilderness;
• Promote the value of cycling to our community as a mode of transportation and as a life long sport.

and lets not discount
IMBA http://www.imba.com

Asana, you're my UL Hero.

no no no

maybe John Muir, how about Goran Kropp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göran_Kropp

Goran Kropp was AMAZING!

May 23, 1996 solo ascent of Mount Everest without bottled oxygen or Sherpa support, travelling only by bicycle from Sweden and back.


or anyone that was a part of the 25th Infantry http://www.nrhc.org/history/25thInfantry.html
of course they were "touring" way before paved roads and Panniers.

so of course this is all old stuff by now.

how can we have NOT read Ed Abbey? crazy!
how about Wilderness and The American Mind. CLASSIC!
uh... gee... dont forget Lewis and Clark. duh!

holy smack... literally. SMACK! right upside the head!
we freaking live in North America. Honestly. Ultralight Touring? its not new. what is new, is laying around in a house, driving a car, punching in on the clock.

according to the Surgeon General, how many steps a day do we think we need to make EACH DAY, to not live a sedentary life? 10thousand.

thats correct. according to the Surgeon General we have to take at least 10,000 steps EVERY DAY, otherwise we fall into the category of SEDENTARY. That is, on average, we need to walk 5 miles EVERY DAY.

so ask ourselves. do we walk from box to box, from chair to chair? do we walk 5 miles every day?

if you walked 5 miles a day, would you carry all the things we carry?
how much stuff is in the average automobile?
how much junk is cluttered on our work desks?
how much stuff lays around our homes?
that is... how much stuff do we NOT USE.

a great little book is The Ohlone Way. The Ohlone didn't even use pottery. they simply lived off of one of the worlds richest eco systems. SF to Big Sur. They didn't even have a written language! instead they were expert orators. When they spoke, they spoke word for word, with the exact expressions, et al.

and they lived here for at least 10,000 years.

heck... in less than 300 years we have created nuclear waste that will last for much longer.

so there you go. you have to honestly wonder of the wisdom here.

RED is the new Blue

now go buy red fuel bottles.

The Way of the Gourd:

I once found a Yerba Mate gourd near Crater Lake, yes I was riding a bicycle
i had found it laying on a stump, all mangled and full of ear wigs.

I loved that gourd
cleaned it up, and marveled at its lightweight

constantly comparing it to my State of the Art Ti Snow Peak Solo cook set.

marveling at how perfectly settled the gourd was in ANY situation
while the perfectly engineered Occidental State of the Art Ti-ware was nervous at best
in anything but the "perfect" environ.

that is, a cup is perfect on a perfect surface
a flat surface
perfectly flat surfaces rarely occur in Nature

ironic

man makes cup for flat surface

Nature makes gourd
gourd imperfect
perfectly irregular
to perfectly match
our irregular Natural world.

even then, the gourd still worked in its Natural demeanor, even on a the flat surface of a table.

meanwhile Ti cup slides around awkwardly on anything other than perfectly flat.

so I went back to work one day

when a co-worker almost tripped over a rubber band
when her gait glanced over the rubber band while laying on a perfectly flat tiled floor
her foot grazed the rubber band, no doubt less than 5mm in height, rolling up into a wad, which then created enough resistance to slow her stride significantly enough to induce a stumble.

I was amazed!

there she was, perfectly adjusted to Life in Standardized Measure, to the extent that her gait was so accurate to mis-step over a mere 5mm.

in Nature there are very few level surfaces.
when we walk in Nature
heres the buzz word... "go for a HIKE" (you want to buy hiking shoes)
do we often times stub the toe of our shoe on a root, or take a mis-step, do we accidentally slide on our heals, are we awkward in the Natural World?

the only commodity that we truly have to spend is TIME.
are we a Human Resource?
that is... are we insured to produce a "promise", credited to produce a widget?
are we only proficient in pre-scribed routes?
are we vested in Brand?
do we believe that Sporting Goods are an "investment"?
why not source from the environment? dig thru the trash to find a clean aluminum can and make it into a stove?
or
simply use twigs to make a fire.
or
why that $120 stove vs $120 of roast beef sandwiches?

how about this little factoid. less than 10% of Sporting Goods are ever used more than 3 times. Less than 1% get used regularly. To the extend of businesses such as Play it again Sports. Look at garage sales, craigslist, ebay, ad nauseam.

over 52% of REI sales are in soft goods. that is REI is a CLOTHING STORE with a kayak.
eddie bauer, hunt club, ford explorer eddie bauer edition, etc...

read: Let my People Go Surfing by Yvone Chouinard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvon_Chouinard

he starts Great Pacific Iron Works to produce hardware such as pitons and Hexentrics. It was not until he brought back rugby clothing from Scotland to be sold for rock climbing, when he started enjoy business success. hence Patagonia.

so it goes to say that most people simply do not have the time/skillset to use hardware on a regular basis. its easier for people to wear Synchilla, buy a calendar with pictures of Half Dome, drink out of a Kleen Kanteen, and ring their keys on a D-ring.

gourd vs cup

fear not, for we all have our own frontiers, and the great out of doors await!

I agree with you

I did a month of touring in France and Belgium in June/July this year. My friend and I were chasing the Tdf and covering relatively big miles, so I took the lightest load that I thought I could get away with but also allow camping everyday. I used my Berthoud handlebar bag (600g), and Carradice Super C saddlebag (800g) and an Event sack.

What I found was that I had plenty of room for the gear, but that carrying enough food to last for a day in between supermarkets was difficult. So I bought a small and cheap pair of panniers from a Decathlon store which were big enough to hold my stove and enough food for a day or so. With this setup I was pretty comfortable (other than not showering very often and getting pretty stinky!).

When Ray Jardine did his 2010 Trans-Am, his bike had a rear rack.