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I use the MSR Pocket Rocket. I don't do a lot of cooking, most campgrounds here in Europe have beer gardens set up on site already. But I love the option, and my coffee in the morning is a must. If I do cook, it's just one pot meals anyway.http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=286120
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Hot food isn't a priority during the summer months and preprepared salads, sandwiches and hot or cold drinks are usually pretty easy to come by at supermarkets, restaurants and convenience stores. But there might still be the odd occasion I might want to cook.
My preference for bike-touring (which is largely a warm weather activity) has long been an alcohol stove and I managed to pick up a couple SS versions before they were discontinued. Alcohol or fondue fuel is pretty universal, and easy to find. It doesn't have the smell/contamination issues associated with gasoline or kerosene when packed in a pannier. The heat output can't be regulated directly, but there's a way around that. The stove is used with Thai, Zebra brand tiffin stainless steel food containers. http://www.zebra-head.com/en/product...yid=0000000007 The containers stack and although tiffins are usually used to DELIVER, not COOK food - they're perfect for a one burner heat source. Something can be started in the bottom, and then shifted up the stack to continue cooking at a lower temperature. The same principal as a double boiler. That approach not only gives more cooking options - it increases fuel efficiency. The concept may not suit everyone's cooking reauirements, but is effective enough that MEC marketed an exact equivalent (for a lot more money). As well as being stackable, the containers are available in a variety of sizes and configurations and can double as storage units for food, or you can eat directly out of them. A Thermos comes in handy too ocassionally. |
Originally Posted by fuzz2050
(Post 14993575)
There is an easy way to determine the amount of fuel you have left.
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For short trips or trips where I expect to use very little fuel, canister stoves as long as it won't get too cold. Primus Powercook (discontinued), Primus Yellowstone (older model), Optimus Crux.
For longer trips or when it will get cold, liquid fuel. If practical, white gas instead of kerosene. Primus Omnifuel and Optimus Nova (not the plus model). Regarding the Nova, recommend the newer valve arrangement where there is a manual shutoff valve on the pump unit, the older valves that were supposed to automatically shut off sometimes did not. I still have several older Gaz cartridges that I want to get rid of, so I expect to use my vintage Bluet stove on some warm weather trips, but I am not buying more of these cartridges. Occasionally dig out the Optimus 111B or 111T or Phoebus 625 if I am feeling nostalgic. |
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
I can look in the burner to see how much fuel is left. And I can look in the clear plastic bottle, or inside the Heet bottle to see how much I have left for multiple usage.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
The safety aspect of refuelling a hot Trangia burner is overstated. If it extinguishes, I just refill it. The burner is not hot enough for it to set alight the new fuel without a flame.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
You should also know that immediately you put any fuel under pressure, the dangers associated with it go up. Alcohol stoves don't use fuel under pressure.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
If a forest fire was started by someone using an mass burn stove, then tell us what type and how it was being used. I can then tell you about people who have been burned very badly by propane explosions in their tents. Or how they've singed their eyebrows trying to bring a rampant pressure gas stove under control.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
I specifically mentioned the Pocket Rocket as being unstable. Others may or may not be. I commented on what I found with that burner. I like the way Trangia sets work with a stable base that by their very design help prevent pots from being spilled.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
You may be a competent cook with the stove you desire to use. I have seen many others who are not. This largely comes back to the type of stove they have been using, and they weren't alcohol ones.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
I also have issues with propane cartridge disposal. You can't refill them...
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
Gas has additives that aren't nice, and any leakage into a pannier is going to be awful to clean up, unlike alcohol that simply... evaporates.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
I've also seen the result first hand of neglect with a propane gas stove, left on as its owners went to bed in a tent. The explosion resulted in shrapnel being scattered up to 20 metres around the campsite. Fortunately, no-one was hurt.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14995919)
I think we've all used different stoves over a period. Your long-held belief that alcohol simply isn't efficient enough in BTU terms for you is OK. For others, they choose what works for them. The OP then can weigh up the pros and cons, including and beyond the BTUs (as a professional chef, I'm sure he is aware of those issues), and go from there.
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 14995852)
And what happens if you run out of fuel during cooking? I can change canisters on the fly if I run out but how do you add more fuel to a hot stove when you have to pour it in? I work with flammable materials all the time so I have a overdeveloped safety nanny sense but I'm not about to try to pour fuel into a stove that is even warm and try to reignite it.
Also a small alcohol fire like that is easy to snuff out in just a second, so those who weren't Smokey's friends must not have been very bright. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 14996990)
Just as I can tell how much fuel is left in my canisters by feeling them, weighing them or shaking them.
Adding fuel to a hot open burn stove is a safety issue. A volatile fuel like an alcohol (ethanol or methanol) evaporates when it is poured. If the device is hot, the amount of evaporation is greater and there is an invisible cloud of fuel mixed with air over the device. Reigniting the stove means passing a flame through that mixture which will ignite at the outer edge and burn inward. It could easily flare. Depending on the heat of the device and the size of the cloud, the size of the fireball can be quite large. The dangers only go up if the pressure is released and an air/fuel mixture is allowed to form. If the fuel is within a pressure vessel and the release is controlled, there is little to no danger. The same can't be said for a open pool of flammable liquid. There is a Denver Post story here on the Hewlett fire. As for people being burned by propane explosions in their tent or singing their eyebrows with stoves, you can't fix stupid. Anyone who cooks in their tent...with any stove... is beyond dumb as is anyone who puts their face over any stove while lighting it. The Pocket Rocket uses the same base as most other butane stoves, i.e. the canister. I've never had a problem with one falling over but I also think about where I place my stove before I put a pot on it. If I were worried about stability, there are bases that can be added to the canister to stabilize it. Or you can use an Omnifuel stove that doesn't sit on the canister but is on it's own base. It's as stable as the Trangia...maybe even more so. It's not the stove's fault but user error. So all high BTU stoves are bad? I don't follow the logic. No, you can't refill them but then you don't usually refill a Heet bottle either. And, since the BTUs are about half of butane, you have to use twice as many bottles. You can purchase a tool to puncture the gas canister and make it recyclable. Gasoline has additives but then so does Heet. I have never had to use gasoline for fuel but use white gas (known by various names around the world) which evaporates as cleanly as alcohol and is less toxic than methanol (the major ingredient in Heet). Butane never leaks in my experience and, if it did, would evaporate even more quickly than white gas or methanol. As I said, you can't fix stupid. We have first hand experience in my state with what happens when an alcohol stove is used carelessly. 7000 acres of charred forest, 5 days of intense fire fighting and millions of dollars spent to fight it, to, be exact. That's a lot of damage for a 'safe' fuel. Although heat value is important to me...I do occasionally like boiling water and would rather not wait around all day for it...it's not the only consideration. Containing the flame, having the ability to meter the heat, having control over turning the stove off and on and, yes, the safe handling of the fuel is just as important. I don't really like using white gas and I will avoid it as much as possible. I have the same problem with it as I do with other liquid fuels. It's just too easy to mishandle it. Butane is easier to use all the way around because it doesn't pool, it doesn't flare and you can't spill it. Since I never, ever, ever, never cook inside my tents and would suggest that no one cook in theirs, I don't have any issues with explosions or even the possibility of one. If someone does cook with propane in their tent, they are just as likely to cook with alcohol and they would still be in the same boat...the fast boat to gene pool removal. And your melodramatic claims about 7000 acres of charred forest come back to... you guessed it... operator error. Just like you justify certain aspects of gas and propane misuse. You are incorrect in that heat output from a burner cannot be controlled. In my experience, you are incorrect about the flare from relighting after refilling an alcohol burner. Heet is not a fuel that I have used at all -- and methylated spirits doesn't have the same additives as gasoline. You provide solutions for cannister disposal, that require acquisition of tools and more weight to tour with. Plus weighing the cannister? Really? On tour? And you are plain flat out wrong about waiting all day for a pot of water to boil when using alcohol. At least you might have thrown up the fact that alcohol doesn't perform that well in high altitudes or in very low temperatures. I've had a few issues in that regard, but really only on one trip. Cycling and travelling through the Canadian Rockies at quite high elevations haven't presented any significant issues. Again, it will depend on the type of touring that chefisaac wants to do. ------------ chefisaac, this sort of discussion is almost inevitable when you talk about stoves. It's like Brooks, carbon fibre, helmets and so on, but it's just restricted to touring. Maybe you should visit your REI shop again, and see if the staff can give you a demonstration of the merits of each of the types of stoves we've been discussing here. It's unlikely, but it's worth a shot. The principle stoves to consider are gasoline, propane, alcohol, solid fuel, and another version which they might not stock that burns wood. Each does have its own merits. But the reason why I asked about what sort of fuel you use for normal cooking, and I suppose we should ask what sort of food do you want to cook on tour... is that cooking with thin aluminium, stainless steel or titanium pots requires a different heating strategy than does cooking with pots that have thick bases. |
Originally Posted by robow
(Post 14997036)
I simply carry a second little cat stove with me and as my flame slowly diminishes, (it does give you a hint that in the next minute it will go out) I fill and light a second stove and just transfer the food to the other stove sitting next to it with no lost time in between flames. Repeat as necessary. Now I'll admit I don't cook the most exotic of meals and one stove ignition is enough for most of my meals, two at most. Those aluminum cat food cans cool amazingly fast within just a few seconds so a second stove is not a necessity but I often find myself giving one away to a fellow rider or hiker so it's nice to carry.
Also a small alcohol fire like that is easy to snuff out in just a second, so those who weren't Smokey's friends must not have been very bright. |
One of the real pluses for me with the Trangia is it stability.
One of the models I have has a hole in the side of the stand so that a gas burner can be used in it. That could mean the best of both worlds for anyone who wants pot-stand stability and the claimed "instant heat" of gasoline (or, I believe, propane with a small hose). And if I was travelling to a remote location where alcohol fuel was not available, but only gasoline, I would certainly consider adding an MSR bottle and burner to the Trangia set-up. There are mix-and-match possibilities with the Trangia that few other stoves, if any, offer. |
For the chef - here's a sample recipe from our Real Meals Outdoors cookbook. One can substitute any fresh, frozen, or canned green vegetable for the FD peas. We eat well, and this is why we carry that Optimus, which boils fast and simmers well. BTW, aluminum pots are the Only Thing. Nothing else that's light enough to carry conducts heat well enough to cook on. We've been doing this together for almost 40 years.
Almond Rice 1 Tbsp. butter 4 oz. whole wheat spaghetti ¾ c. instant brown rice 1 c. (or pkg.)freeze-dried peas ½ c. chopped almonds 1 pkg. dried onion/mushroom soup 1 Tbsp. dried parsley ½ tsp. salt water Melt butter and brown the rice and almonds. Add remaining ingredients, with enough water to cook the rice according to the package directions, plus 2 c. Bring to a boil and simmer covered, 15-20 minutes until rice and spaghetti are done and liquid is almost gone. Stir occasionally. When this is done there is not a lot of sauce. Taste the spaghetti to see if it is done, and add more water if necessary. The amount of water depends on the brands of rice and noodles, and your elevation. Serves two. Per serving: 750 cal., 33% (244 cal.) from fat; 12% (22g) protein; 27g fat (6g sat.); 55% (104g) carbo.; 2240mg sodium; 16mg chol. |
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14997107)
Errr... just how many times have you used an alcohol stove, cyccommute? You really do come across as someone who hasn't.
As for other alcohol stoves, I've not tried them. I'm not likely to either since I have several stoves that work very well and I can't see the point of a low heat value fuel like alcohol
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14997107)
And your melodramatic claims about 7000 acres of charred forest come back to... you guessed it... operator error. Just like you justify certain aspects of gas and propane misuse.
It's also a little disingenuous to complain about 'melodrama' when you have your own melodramatic issues. Going on about blowing up a tent with a propane canister is a tad melodramatic as well.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14997107)
You are incorrect in that heat output from a burner cannot be controlled. In my experience, you are incorrect about the flare from relighting after refilling an alcohol burner. Heet is not a fuel that I have used at all -- and methylated spirits doesn't have the same additives as gasoline. You provide solutions for cannister disposal, that require acquisition of tools and more weight to tour with. Plus weighing the cannister? Really? On tour? And you are plain flat out wrong about waiting all day for a pot of water to boil when using alcohol.
I see nothing in the Trangia stove that looks like a regulator or flame control. And I know that catfood can stoves have zero regulation. You are the one who mentioned Heet, not me. One could easily assume that you've used it. You are also the one who mentioned low temperature heating I like the Trangias for their stability, performance in the wind, and their slow cooking (like indyfabz, I like cooking rather than just reheating or boiling water). I don't 'just reheat or boil water' when I cook over a camp stove but I also like the fact that I can boil a pot of water for coffee in a very short period of time. There are also many ways of 'weighing' something. The canister has heft to it so you can 'weigh' it in your hand. An empty canister is lighter than a full one.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14997107)
At least you might have thrown up the fact that alcohol doesn't perform that well in high altitudes or in very low temperatures. I've had a few issues in that regard, but really only on one trip. Cycling and travelling through the Canadian Rockies at quite high elevations haven't presented any significant issues. Again, it will depend on the type of touring that chefisaac wants to do.
Originally Posted by Rowan
(Post 14997107)
chefisaac, this sort of discussion is almost inevitable when you talk about stoves. It's like Brooks, carbon fibre, helmets and so on, but it's just restricted to touring.
Maybe you should visit your REI shop again, and see if the staff can give you a demonstration of the merits of each of the types of stoves we've been discussing here. It's unlikely, but it's worth a shot. The principle stoves to consider are gasoline, propane, alcohol, solid fuel, and another version which they might not stock that burns wood. Each does have its own merits. But the reason why I asked about what sort of fuel you use for normal cooking, and I suppose we should ask what sort of food do you want to cook on tour... is that cooking with thin aluminium, stainless steel or titanium pots requires a different heating strategy than does cooking with pots that have thick bases. |
Originally Posted by robow
(Post 14997036)
Also a small alcohol fire like that is easy to snuff out in just a second, so those who weren't Smokey's friends must not have been very bright.
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cyccommute, it is extremely obvious that you have never used a proper trangia stove, instead only trying the homemade style. They are different in many respects. Also, you should probably not get so worked up over something as simple as ones stove choice.
I do not understand how the forest fire really started, it says the man turned away from the stove and when he looked back there was a fire. There is more to the story, IMO. |
By the way, if you decide to go with a trangia I highly recommend the full blow stove with wind screen instead of the mini trangia as displayed on REI's website. I have never seen the full trangia being sold at REI, only the mini.
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Cooking with alcohol takes some practice. I've built dozens of different sizes and designs. Most of them with some sort of apparatus like a "simmer ring" to control the flame. The reason I came back to the penny stove is because, it operates with the principle of heating the alcohol inside the stove, thus creating more vapors and pressurizing the fuel, inside. The penny acts as a regulator, releasing excess pressure to keep the flame at a consistent level. To turn the flame down you drop a simmer ring on it which pushes the flame inward and away from the edges of the stove. This cools the aluminum, in turn cooling the alcohol and reducing the vapors and pressure pushing the fuel out.
Nothing against using what your comfortable with, but alcohol stoves don't deserve most of the criticisms that folks apply to them. |
+1 for the MSR Pocket Rocket. It is light (3 ounces), has good flame control, and fuel is relatively easy to find in the U. S. and Europe.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...PICT6534-1.jpg http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...DSCN4289-1.jpg It is versatile too. The MSR Whisperlite works a little better for extended trips or when a lot of water needs to be boiled or snow melted. http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...abrokentop.jpg |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 14997470)
How do you control the heat from a burner that burns from a pool of liquid? I can adjust the valve on any of my stoves so that I have a flame that is barely visible or a flame that is almost hot enough to melt steel.
I see nothing in the Trangia stove that looks like a regulator or flame control. And I know that catfood can stoves have zero regulation. I find the simmer ring less practical than just turning the valve on a gas stove, but it's no problem to operate and it's really simple and durable. Not much to go wrong. When making pasta I usually operate the Trangia without simmer ring (burning gasified alcohol, at full power) until the water boils after which I put the simmer ring in place at a setting I want (easy job with the included pot holder, no need to turn off the fire) and throw in whatever is to be cooked. Both gas and alcohol stoves have their advantages and are perfectly capable to be used cooking a proper meal. It's really situation dependent and subjective to say which type is better overall, not to mention huge differences between different gas and alcohol stoves... As to the speed to get to full heat which is slower with an alcohol stove because it's a moderate flame until the burner is heated to the point at which the alcohol starts to gasify enough for the jet flame to start: most people I know don't mind sitting around, cooking in the evening for 1 or 2 minutes longer when they're camping... In which situation would you care? We're not even talking about 5 minutes longer. Even when cooking next to a friend who is cooking with his gas burner, I never even noticed the speed difference. And in case you like the stability and windscreen and pots and pan and pot gripper of the Trangia that all fit into each other but would like to use an other fuel, e.g. when cycling around the world, you can just buy their gas or multifuel kits and use those instead of the alcohol burner: multifuel: http://youtu.be/39RfXfuVj2g or gas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay3MpRKUgdA |
Originally Posted by Lasse
(Post 14998211)
That's why every Trangia burner includes a simmer ring that can be regulated manually to alter the opening of the burner (the part on the right in this picture: http://zenstoves.net/TopBurner/Trangia2.jpg ).
I find the simmer ring less practical than just turning the valve on a gas stove, but it's no problem to operate and it's really simple and durable. Not much to go wrong. When making pasta I usually operate the Trangia without simmer ring (burning gasified alcohol, at full power) until the water boils after which I put the simmer ring in place at a setting I want (easy job with the included pot holder, no need to turn off the fire) and throw in whatever is to be cooked. Both gas and alcohol stoves have their advantages and are perfectly capable to be used cooking a proper meal. It's really situation dependent and subjective to say which type is better overall, not to mention huge differences between different gas and alcohol stoves... As to the speed to get to full heat which is slower with an alcohol stove because it's a moderate flame until the burner is heated to the point at which the alcohol starts to gasify enough for the jet flame to start: most people I know don't mind sitting around, cooking in the evening for 1 or 2 minutes longer when they're camping... In which situation would you care? We're not even talking about 5 minutes longer. Even when cooking next to a friend who is cooking with his gas burner, I never even noticed the speed difference. And in case you like the stability and windscreen and pots and pan and pot gripper of the Trangia that all fit into each other but would like to use an other fuel, e.g. when cycling around the world, you can just buy their gas or multifuel kits and use those instead of the alcohol burner: multifuel: http://youtu.be/39RfXfuVj2g or gas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay3MpRKUgdA Butane, on the other hand, does form a gas that can't be simply condensed to liquid without going through a much more involved process. If you puncture the container, the liquid butane would escape and form into what we chemists call a 'permanent' gas. Methane (natural gas), oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, butane, carbon monoxide, etc. are all permanent gases. They can be made into liquids but not easily and not usually by cooling the gas. I don't know anyone in my field of study that would use the term 'gasify' to describe even turning a condensed liquid 'gas' into a permanent gas. Gasification usually implies something very different like converting a solid material like biomass into permanent gases like carbon monoxide, hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Now on to the stove. The Trangia site doesn't make clear that the stove has a simmer ring nor how to use it. Your link clears up a misconception on my part. That said, the simmer ring looks like a crude method. And having to lift the pot contents off to set the simmer ring on seems very cumbersome. Not something that seems easy to do on the fly nor offers much in the way of fine control. Even the worst stove for control I've used...the MSR Whisperlite... is easier to regulate than dropping a ring of metal onto the fire and bumping a metal flap open and closed as needed. |
Originally Posted by zoltani
(Post 14997782)
cyccommute, it is extremely obvious that you have never used a proper trangia stove, instead only trying the homemade style. They are different in many respects. Also, you should probably not get so worked up over something as simple as ones stove choice.
I do not understand how the forest fire really started, it says the man turned away from the stove and when he looked back there was a fire. There is more to the story, IMO. There may be more to the story about setting a forest on fire with a camp stove. I will tell you that I was on a month long tour in the south when the guy set the forest ablaze. My wife told me about the fire and said that the reports said that it was an upset stove. I didn't even need to hear what kind of fuel he was using to know that it was an alcohol open burn stove. Quite frankly, I can't see how any stove other than an alcohol stove could start a fire like that. |
The last stove I used was a home-made Pepsi-can alky stove. It was wonderful, for what it was--free and light. Of course it had limitations. There is no best stove or there would only be one stove. One method I haven't seen mentioned yet for flame control with alcohol is lifting up the pot and adding a capful of water to the fuel. I used to simmer rice fairly well doing that. Alky stoves are really only good for limited use. If you cook two meals a day and/or have to melt snow, the weight of the fuel starts getting too much. I read somewhere that the break even point is about 10 ounces of fuel--if you find yourself carrying more than that, gas might be better for you. My pepsi can stove wasn't very stable--it got blown over twice in high winds. If I hadn't been habitually careful with surrounding fuels, there could have been a fire. The alcohol wasn't the issue--the surface fuels could have been.
I don't carry a stove any more, and haven't for many seasons and many miles. My hiking and biking just got better when I stopped cooking, or trying to cook is more like it. Here's a pretty good stove summary from the hiking world: http://www.pmags.com/stove-comparison-real-world-use |
For 3 season backpacking trips, I use Snowpeak Litemax.
For longer winter trips, Primus Omnilite Ti. If you have read some articles about stove efficiency and weight, you can't beat canister stoves. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 14998339)
First, you are using the wrong term. The fuel is volatilized, not gasified. White gas, alcohol, gasoline and other liquid fuels all evaporate to take a gas like form. The material isn't a real 'gas' in that it could be recovered to the liquid state by simply cooling the vapors. Without heat, the material would remain as a liquid.
Butane, on the other hand, does form a gas that can't be simply condensed to liquid without going through a much more involved process. If you puncture the container, the liquid butane would escape and form into what we chemists call a 'permanent' gas. Methane (natural gas), oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, butane, carbon monoxide, etc. are all permanent gases. They can be made into liquids but not easily and not usually by cooling the gas. I don't know anyone in my field of study that would use the term 'gasify' to describe even turning a condensed liquid 'gas' into a permanent gas. Gasification usually implies something very different like converting a solid material like biomass into permanent gases like carbon monoxide, hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Regarding butane: doesn't it simply go from gas to liquid state by cooling it to 0°C (273.15 K) at atmospheric pressure (101325 Pa) ? Several sources mention a vapour pressure of 0 Pa in those conditions. Or in other words: it would become liquid again if it's a bit cold outside. To make it at least a bit ontopic: avoid pure butane as a fuel if you plan to cook on cold days. |
Originally Posted by Lasse
(Post 14998469)
I see. Thanks for correcting the semantics, I'm no native English speaker.
Regarding butane: doesn't it simply go from gas to liquid state by cooling it to 0°C (273.15 K) at atmospheric pressure (101325 Pa) ? Several sources mention a vapour pressure of 0 Pa in those conditions. Or in other words: it would become liquid again if it's a bit cold outside. To make it at least a bit relevant for the topic: avoid pure butane as a fuel if you plan to cook on cold days. Pressurized white gas doesn't because you are using air pressure to force the fuel from the can. There is usually a coil that runs through the burner that aids in the volatilization of the fuel which is why you have to prime liquid fuel stoves like the Whisperlite. The priming process simply heats the fuel in the line to make it into a vapor that can mix with oxygen to burn. Butane stoves actually cool as you use them so when it is cold, it's a bit harder to get the fuel into a volatile state. Alcohol also cools as it burns...that's why fire eaters can place soaked marbles in their mouths during shows. The marbles are actually cool to the touch because it take heat to get the liquid into a vapor state. That cools the marbles and makes them easy to handle. |
Has anyone else had trouble finding iso butane canisters while on the road, and/or do you think they are becoming more commonplace? I noticed that a few Walmarts now carry them but others don't. On several of our more rural rides there were never any camping stores nearby and gas stations rarely carried the stuff although they would often carry Coleman white gas and propane. Because of that I would often take a second canister "just in case" and hated eating up pannier space with it, let alone the weight. The result of those trips is I now have several partially filled canisters around home that I'm not sure I could depend on for a week or two on the road.
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 14998512)
Not at atmospheric pressure. In the canister, the fuel is under pressure to keep it liquid. That's why it hisses when you open the valve on the stove before you ignite it. It doesn't take much compression to liquefy butane but it does take some. The reason that butane doesn't do well in the cold is the same reason that alcohol and many other fuels don't do well in the cold, they need a little heat to volatilize.
Luckily, for gas stove users, you can also buy gas canisters that don't contain only pure butane, e.g. mixed with propane which has a much higher vapour pressure (starts to become vapour at -42°C). On one of my last winter camping trips, my alcohol stove worked without problems at -10°C, starting the fire was just a bit slower than usual (cheap lighter) but everything worked fine. There might be a reason why alcohol stoves are very popular in Scandinavia, including in military use... Conclusion: if you choose the right gas canister (not the pure butane one) you'll be fine below 0°C, just like you would be fine with alcohol. |
The heat output of alcohol is probably underappreciated. In the lab it was common practice to use a simple alcohol burner to bend glass tubing. It does help to use the right kind of alcohol though. Isopropyl alcohol isn't a fuel, and pure methanol is poor compared to ethanol. Cafeterias and restaurants use alcohol and butane stoves all the time for buffets because the combustion is less toxic.
And although gasoline, kerosene, propane and butane might have the potential to put out more heat - I don't necessarily want it. At home the only time I turn a burner on high is to boil water. Same thing when camping - and particularly when using light weight aluminum, titanium or stainless steel cookware. High heat with anything other than a very thick bottomed pot results in burned food - not cooked food. But it'll still boil a stovetop expresso coffeemaker easily. And stoves are becoming increasingly difficult to travel with if your trip involves an airplane. Anything with a fuel bottle or pressurized tank simply isn't allowed at any airport I've been through. An alcohol stove is open, has no tank and gets through every time. |
OP probably got more than he bargained for when asking this question. Stove questions on BF always descend into the same debate, usually led by cyccommute.
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 14997470)
I've experimented with a 'cat food' can stove at home. I wasn't impressed. There is absolutely no control over the flame with that kind of stove. There is no low, high or medium setting since it just a pool of alcohol that burns. I did try white gas in one too. I'd not suggest anyone try that since the fire is far too hot for the materials used to construct the stove. It didn't melt but the foil tape holding the cans together didn't fair too well in just a few minutes of burning.
As for other alcohol stoves, I've not tried them. I'm not likely to either since I have several stoves that work very well and I can't see the point of a low heat value fuel like alcohol Talk to the people who were impacted by 7000 acres (~ 12 sq miles) of forest that was burned as to whether or not it is melodramatic. I'll agree that it was operator error but it's an error that would be extremely difficult to repeat with a pressurized white gas stove and impossible to repeat with a butane stove. I suppose if I dropped a butane stove in a pile of pine needles or waved it around the limbs of a tree, I could get a good blaze going but that goes beyond operator error. It's also a little disingenuous to complain about 'melodrama' when you have your own melodramatic issues. Going on about blowing up a tent with a propane canister is a tad melodramatic as well. How do you control the heat from a burner that burns from a pool of liquid? I can adjust the valve on any of my stoves so that I have a flame that is barely visible or a flame that is almost hot enough to melt steel. I see nothing in the Trangia stove that looks like a regulator or flame control. And I know that catfood can stoves have zero regulation. You are the one who mentioned Heet, not me. One could easily assume that you've used it. You are also the one who mentioned low temperature heating One could draw the conclusion that boiling water isn't important to you and, from my experiments at home, it's rather difficult to achieve with alcohol. I don't 'just reheat or boil water' when I cook over a camp stove but I also like the fact that I can boil a pot of water for coffee in a very short period of time. There are also many ways of 'weighing' something. The canister has heft to it so you can 'weigh' it in your hand. An empty canister is lighter than a full one. Can't cover everything. But that is more an issue with the boiling point of water than it is with the fuel. I'm used to living at 5000+ feet so adjusting to altitude isn't much of a problem. Going down in altitude is more of a problem because stuff cooks faster than I expect. I, too, suggest that Chefisaac try stoves before he buys. He should seriously consider how the fuel is handled, how it is dispensed, how it is controlled and even how hot the flame is. You may like to do 'slow cooking' but some people may not. You've also proved for us that you largely don't know what you are talking about with alcohol stoves. I think I will leave it at that. |
Originally Posted by Burton
(Post 14998756)
The heat output of alcohol is probably underappreciated. In the lab it was common practice to use a simple alcohol burner to bend glass tubing. It does help to use the right kind of alcohol though. Isopropyl alcohol isn't a fuel, and pure methanol is poor compared to ethanol. Cafeterias and restaurants use alcohol and butane stoves all the time for buffets because the combustion is less toxic.
And although gasoline, kerosene, propane and butane might have the potential to put out more heat - I don't necessarily want it. At home the only time I turn a burner on high is to boil water. Same thing when camping - and particularly when using light weight aluminum, titanium or stainless steel cookware. High heat with anything other than a very thick bottomed pot results in burned food - not cooked food. But it'll still boil a stovetop expresso coffeemaker easily. And stoves are becoming increasingly difficult to travel with if your trip involves an airplane. Anything with a fuel bottle or pressurized tank simply isn't allowed at any airport I've been through. An alcohol stove is open, has no tank and gets through every time. I do ensure that any residual meths is burnt off, then if there is any double, I wash out the burner with water. I did have a problem in a Japanese airport, but the issue was not the burner, but a cigarette lighter packed in with the cookset... and I was able to carry that on board as hand luggage. Go figure. |
Lol, boiling water is difficult with an alcohol stove....thanks for the chuckle!
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