You are correct. But cooling butane to convert it back to a liquid only works with the pure substance (like the fuel in the tank or canister), not from an air and butane mixture. A few years ago I had an older puncture type Bluet GAZ cartridge on a heater that I wanted to switch from the heater to a stove. That type of cartridge has to stay on the device until it is empty due to lack of shut off valve on the canister. I set these components outside when it was well below freezing (0 degrees C) until they reached the outside temperature, I then switched the canister from the heater to the stove without any problem. Some of those canisters use an isobutane mix, some older ones (like the one I swapped from one device to another) were pure butane. I would not have attempted that with an isobutane mix.

On a four day trip a few years ago, I brought all of my partially used canisters, used up all but one of them. I usually weigh my canisters when they are full and assume that they contain the rated amount of fuel, I then mark the bottom with how many grams the canister weighs full. From that I can estimate how much fuel is left by weighing them later. Since it was only a four day trip, I had a lot of extra space so I could carry several extra partially full (or partially empty if you prefer) canisters.

The older Bluet GAZ cartridges (some of which I still own) are pure butane, not a mixture. I believe that they are no longer made in pure butane.

Regarding cold weather camping, in my post number 34 (above) I stated: "For longer trips or when it will get cold, liquid fuel." and "I still have several older Gaz cartridges that I want to get rid of, so I expect to use my vintage Bluet stove on some warm weather trips, but I am not buying more of these cartridges."

Since some people appear to be afraid or incapable of controlling a very simple, small alcohol fire contained in a very stable Trangia or similar burner and call it "faulty in design and hazardous in use" but appear to believe that gas stoves are perfectly safe: gas stoves can and do explode occasionally. There are plenty of examples online and 3 kids were also brought to the hospital at a festival I attended after their gas stove exploded in their face while they were cooking. This is how it works:
When using a wind screen around the burner and canister the temperature of the canister and thus the contained gas will rise, increasing the vapour pressure of the gas. For a 70/30 butane/propane mixture the pressure inside the container will rise from 1 barg at 0°C to about 6 barg at 40°C, further increasing with temperature, that's quite an increase. Obviously gas containers have their limits and will burst when the internal pressure becomes too big compared to atmospheric pressure. With careful use, this shouldn't be a problem though and you'd have to do your best to overheat an external fuel bottle connected by hose to the actual burner.

So safety risks gas vs alcohol:
- gas: don't overheat your gas canister or it will explode. (a pure butane canister from Campingaz has a warning on it not to heat the canister above 50°C for risk of explosion)
- alcohol: don't throw over your alcohol stove or you will have to extinguish the fire with some water, also don't add alcohol to the burner when the fire is still going or if the burner itself is still very hot.

Gas canisters that I've seen around here (Europe) are clearly marked whether they contain pure butane or a mixture of butane and propane, both are sold. In the latter case the mixture composition is also mentioned since the propane addition does bring the usable temperature down a lot: a 70/30 butane/propane mix has a boiling temperature of around -20°C, which is quite a bit better than the 100% butane canister that only boils at 0°C. A pure propane canister even starts to boil at -40°C. Available in the local outdoor store are Campingaz with a 80/20 mixture rated to -10°C, Campingaz pure butane, Coleman with a 70/30 mix and Primus with a "4 season" mixture of 50% butane, 25% propane and 25% isobutane.
So no, don't expect butane canisters to contain a mixture of propane and butane by default and no, the difference is not small, there really is a big difference in usable temperature range by adding propane (and/or isobutane).

Winter camping is really nice by the way, especially in snowy forests. :)

But again, all 3 burner types (multifuel, alcohol and gas) are all usable for camping. I've happily used both gas and alcohol stoves and look forward to try out a multifuel burner one day. Choose a type based on your preferences and the conditions in which you plan to travel. And don't forget the alternatives including wood and Esbit blocks.

I've never found this to be a problem. I find I can pretty reliably put in just enough fuel for what I am cooking and have no further need to evaluate how much is left.

With a pop can stove there is so little mass that it cools almost immediately. Even if you add alcohol immediately, very little vapor is produced. Bottom line is that I have never found this to be a problem. The greater mass of a brass stove like the trangia may make this more of an issue.


I agree that is an advantage of the butane stove over pop can stoves.

That said I don't really find it to be all that big of a deal for me when touring. You can do a number of things to get some adjustment in heat with the pop can stoves. One way is a diffuser plate, another is a simmer ring, another is raising the pot a bit higher, and yet another is having a different simmer burner (at under .5 ounces carrying an extra burner isn't a problem). None of those allow super fine control, but they work well enough.

If all other factors were equal I'd use butane for it's better flame control, but when alcohol is the lighter option I will use it for that reason. Similarly I am likely to use it for availability reasons. I know some folks report excellent availability for butane canisters, but I have not found that to be the case in a lot of the places I have toured, and I have always been able to find alcohol.

Can we keep please keep the thread about stoves and not black pots and kettles?

You know there are forum rules about respect. Calling into question my intellect and my grades is violating those rules. Attacking the man is just a cheap trick by people who have no other recourse and whose arguments are weak. Talk to the point of the argument. You have no idea what my grades in college were, when I graduated from college or anything else about me. In other words, your entire post is nothing but insulting drivel meant to do exactly what you say that I am doing, i.ee. making yourself a legend in your own tiny little mind. Where have you been constructive? I pointed out a mistake on your part and all you can do is deflect it with insults that I should report to the moderators.

Now, as for having alcohol burners in labs when I was in college, there were none. There hadn't been any for several years. They are, and were, crappy heat sources and dangerous to use. Again, no one that I have known has used one for more than 3 decades.

Not when you lecture me with attitude.

We're not talking about a laboratory, we are talking about cooking on a bicycle tour.

Adding a bit of salt to alcohol fuel will give a yellow sodium flame without affect the cooking properties, and make it visible in daylight.

And as for cooking for multiple people, carry multiple stoves--or have them carry a few 10 gram stoves and a pot themselves, the lazy bums!

When on a big group van-supported tour, we used a massive cast-iron 2-burner propane setup hooked up to a one-gallon tank, that weighed about 10 kg altogether. That beats anything for cooking for 23 people. You can cook a heck of a lot of French toast in a hurry on something like that.

I have used my Trangia to cook at home. For weeks at a time. Breakfast and dinners/suppers. Nourishing meals that kept a hard-working farm hand in business.

You are the one who said he didn't want to wait all day to boil water. Maybe that was your now-familiar entree into telling us about how inefficient alcohol is. Theory is one thing; practice is another thing entirely.

Keep going, cyccommute, you are just confirming even more that you don't have a clue about using alcohol burner stoves.

I've used both canister and Trangia. It's all good. Nowadays I mostly use a Mini-Trangia. The simmer ring is really good. Bring to the boil without it, then just put it on to keep simmering. The "fully open" simmer ring is just right for simmering in most outdoor conditions. The lid works fine as a frying pan.

Good wind protection makes a lot of difference to cooking time/fuel consumption.

Mostly I do coffee water, beans and rice, pasta etc. in the mini-trangia. For more ambitious cooking the larger Trangia with two pots is better.

Canisters have become more expensive in europe from what I've seen recently.

Oh, and about refilling a "hot" trangia burner, Just fill it with water and tip out again before putting more alcohol in. Works for me... I find however that I've got pretty good at estimating, if I may say so myself! ;)

The particular model of alcohol stove I have is a SS Simon Alcohol Stove originally marketed by Safesport. Performance specifications are stated as:
Boils a pint of water in less than 4.5 minutes
Boils 2.5 liters of water per 4oz of fuel
Burning time is approximately 22 minutes at maximum fuel capacity

That's been more than adequate for my needs for most bicycle touring and reports are the Trangia and a few other models are even better. I have owned an Optimus 99 white gas burner that was used in four different countries over a 20 year period as well as several butane stoves (which I still have). This one may not be everyone's preference, but alcohol stoves can be extremely functional and I'm still very comfortable with this one in spite of the improved stoves currently available. I have a second that was ocassionally carried as a back-up and never needed it.

This shows it against a Trangia and discusses some of the further advantages of the Trangia. It also demonstrates the complications caused by lack of experience. Its actually quite simple to calculate the anticipated burn time required and measure out fuel accordingly so there is no 'left-over fuel' issue.

http://www.spiritburner.com/fusion/s...8457/post/new/

Yup ... you should consider following them. You want to make a carreer out of 'correcting' people. There were no 'mistakes' in my post. Just a few things that you were unaware of.

Awesome. A flamewar about campstoves.

I did follow them. Where in my post did I insult you? And, yes, there were 'mistakes' in your post. I actually work in a chemical laboratory and I've visited many other chemical laboratories. It is not 'common' practice to use alcohol burners. I've checked with other chemists in my laboratories and, with the exception of one guy who used one in his garage when he was a kid, no one else has used one. The most common response from anyone under the age of 40 was "What's that?"

LOL Maybe the better question might be - in how many threads HAVEN'T you insulted me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyccommute (Post 14934340)

Ooh! Ooh! I'll be Burton: (Switching on Burton mode) "Don't buy it because you haven't taken out a 30 year mortgage on the light and it doesn't have a millennial warrantee...way better than lifetime. It may be out of date in a year but if you want quality you have to spend the GDP of a good European country. Otherwise you've obviously bought crap and don't know anything .

---

Anyway I think I was pretty specific: "In the lab it was common practice to use a simple alcohol burner to bend glass tubing." A bunsen burner puts out too much heat to be useful for bending flint glass tubing and if the labs you work in don't need to do that - it changes nothing.

And Mr Black, I didn't 'call into question' your intellect and grades - I posted some specifics.

Your behavior and treatment of my postings hasn't changed since I joined this forum about a year ago in spite of my requests that you stop and invitations to collaborate rather than compete - and quite frankly - I'm really getting tired of it.

Have a nice day.

Though I do appreciate the chemistry and science you're bringing to the discussion, what I do on the road in the middle of nowhere on a bike tour is not very relevant to what I do at home on a daily basis, besides it's tough to pack along a generator in a pannier since I use electricity at home.

LOL And my apologies to everyone else in this thread for setting the house on fire!

This has been a good thread and I have learned a lot.

I went to REI and the guy was not much of a help. So I will go back when the instructor guy is working.

In the meantime, I will play around with a cat stove at work and see how it works. What a better way to learn then in the kitchen! lol

At this point, I am not sure why type of cooking I want to do. I know this will drive the ultimate decision on what type of stove to get so I may need to table this for a while until I can figure it out. We will see.

SPECIFICS!? What the hell do you know about my grades in college? Where I went to college? How I "eventually struggled through [my] first degree"? I got damned fine grades in a very tough discipline through college and turned those grades into a very good career.

Yes, I poked fun at you once. You have called me a child that needed to be spanked, represented me as stupid, said that I got bad grades in college, etc. I have not once questioned your intelligence. I disagree with your statements and ideas but I do not, have not and will not insult you personally. I ask...no, I demand...the same. Disagree with me all you want. I can handle it. But you have stepped over a line...more than once.

As for glass bending, you are still wrong. Get thee to a laboratory and actually learn something. No one uses 'flint' glass except as disposable pipets and using alcohol burners in a professional laboratory setting is not a common practice.

We are done!

Egos are a many splendoured thing.

Stuart,

I think you have been treated unfairly here by some people, who seem unable to stay with reason and substance, and descend to the level of personal insults.

I have found most of what you have said to be clear, intelligent, and on target, to a greater degree than most of your critics.

You have some appreciators here as well.

Alcohol has gotten away from some people. Russ, of www.pathlesspedaled,com, has an entry about one of his mishaps.

He doesn't strike me as particularly careless or unintelligent.

Others have experienced similar problems.

Not being able to see the flame can take some getting used to.

Of the main stoves being discussed, alcohol stoves are the only ones that can spill when accidentally knocked or tipped over. Spills can be difficult to deal with, especially in daylight.

I wouldn't feel comfortable using these stoves in some situations (involving certain children, pets, and other conditions).

Some are more stable than others, but there are still some related issues.

He's good at drowning you in technical mumbo-jumbo to cover his lack of real world experience.

Canister stoves would be a clear first choice for me, if not for these three factors:

(1) I can afford them; but the cost adds up over time, and I don't like to waste money. Every time I buy a few canisters, I feel like I am wasting money. They are 'only' about five bucks per can (at REI, more at small stops along the way...). A gallon's worth will run about a hundred sixty bucks.

A gallon of gasoline currently costs about 3.49 USD where I am.

So the canister fuel is over forty-five times the price.

Adjusting for a roughly 5% greater energy density (it's probably less), doesn't help the picture much.

Nor does buying larger canisters -- gasoline is still many times less expensive.

I go through gallons of fuel. Having a few hundred extra bucks in my pocket means something, and this will repeat over time.

No, it wouldn't be a huge financial burden to spring for the canisters; but that is not really the point -- the point is, I would rather have the money than the canisters.

(2) Canister availability is a real issue on many of my tours. When I can get them, they are often considerably more expensive than REI. I don't care at all for the strategy of mailing them to myself.

(3) I don't particularly like the canister idea. It's added clutter; partially used canisters aren't so great to have to deal with; and the whole approach goes against the re-use ethos.

There is another aspect of stoves that hasn't been mentioned yet: I don't know the best term for it, but it might be called aesthetic-system appreciation.

Some systems have something about them that one just connects with and appreciates. Like a woman -- there is just something that hits you. You might not be able to put your finger on it, but it's there. Or maybe you can put your finger on it.

It isn't exactly the same with stoves, but it is analogous.

The Jetboil systems appeal to some people in this way -- some of these systems are tight, compact, self-contained, smart, light, well designed, and 'trick' -- at least in some people's eyes.

Same with the Trangias.

(Unfortunately, some people seem to get a little too attached to their choices, and will leave their best friends if they put her down.)

This is somewhat intangible and individual, but it is a real factor. You might as well have and use something whose design you appreciate, whether animate or so-called inanimate.

Me, I like the Dragonfly. At least for now. Recently spoke with someone at REI who knows and has tried many stoves as well (he works in that department, and has for years), and he too likes this stove a lot. It's been his first choice for quite a while now.

Yes, some stoves are very quiet and 'meditative'. But you can enjoy many aspects.

Alcohol stoves remind me of the first part of this dance,


https://www.bikeforums.net/www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZVF7AEK6Wo
The Dragonfly is more like the second part. It's got back.

I like back.



[if that link doesn't work (I'm on a limited computer system at the moment, and can't test it), it's "awesome wedding dance" at youtube.com, or provide the link if you can do so]

I almost peed my pants! lol

You are right on many accounts here. And being a chef, for me at least, means simplicity. Ask a chef their favorite dish (off camera and not in front of people who do not cook for a living) and they will tell you something simple.

I still do not know much about stoves but going to play with alcohol stoves first in the kitchen. Why? Because they appeal to me, Small as they are is intriguing. Are they the right stove? I have no freaking clue. But I am looking forward to trying them to see.

Glad to hear you appreciate....

Some people really like them. If you do too, then why not.

Hi, gang. I realize that some times threads can get off a little bit off topic. This has apparently happened here. Kindly stick to the topic at hand. Unless you have used it, are using it, or planning on using it while on tour in the field, it doesn't belong.

Thanks.

I can't help but think there are outdoor jocks in places like REI as there are bike jocks in LBSs...

But, yes, the self-build alcohol stove is an ideal way to start out with this. The issue will be how you suspend the pot above the flame, but I am sure you can work that out with some creative kitchen thinking.

Use of the alcohol stove will at least give you a starting point and you will be equipped with better knowledge if you can borrow, beg or steal stoves of other energy sources to experiment with.

As to the other stuff you've had to wade through, well, it happens.