A couple years ago I was on a tour with a fellow who had a Jet boil and he pooh-poohed my little cat stove and so we had a race to see who could bring 2 or 3 cups of water to boil soonest and it was darn near a draw. He might have won by few seconds but it wasn't much if any difference which surprised me as well.

Several posters have mentioned that alcohol stoves do not perform well in low temps, at high altitudes, or are even hot enough to boil water, of all claims...

I had no such problems with mine in Tibet, not too far from Mt. Everest. I am not sure what my exact altitude was but I would guess something like 4,000-4,500 meters, camping in an abandoned Nepalese fortress at the base of the last pass before leaving Tibet and entering Nepal.

I cooked dinner (boiled noodles with yak meat), breakfast (oatmeal with yak butter) and stale coffee (I think I bought it several months ago back in Qinghai province). No problems.

I think the myth that alcohol doesn't work well in cold/altitude comes from it not wanting to light when the fuel/burner is cold. This isnt much of a problem. Just put the burner with the fuel inside (you can do that with a Trangia!) in your pocket for a few minutes or keep it in your sleeping bag with you at night or something. Works fine.

On my trip across China, Tibet, Nepal, and India I carried a Trangia alcohol stove along with a Primus Omni fuel because everyone warned me that I would not be able to use my Trangia in Tibet and would have a hard time boiling water for drinking. Drinking water was never hard enough to come by that I had to resort to boiling river water and I never had that hard a time finding fuel for the stove. I think I used my Primus a grand total of once during the whole trip and it was just a demonstration for some monks who were curious. In fact, they offered to buy it off me! I should have sold it.... ended up mailing it home in Kathmandu.

Anyways, here is a link to my journal with pics and more info. You scroll down and go to "part 2" of that days entry to see the camping spot and the meal I made.

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/p...94&v=N4#bottom

Yikes! That was only a few year back Rowan! Even with insurance coverage - thats a lot to recover from!

I started with white gas stoves, then switched to Trangia, and eventually to pop can stoves. This fellow sells a set of 3 with pot stand, wind screen, and fuel bottle for $16.75 and free shipping, though his penny stove lacks the rim and simmer ring. The open spirit burner design is dead-simple to light and use, and you can remove the stand, set the pot on the stove to reduce the flame, and thus simmer with it. I often use two burners at once, too.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/903aaron903/...p2047675.l2562

When the fuel goes out, wait a few seconds , refill, and relight. No explosions here--these things aren't thick brass like the trangia and cool off extremely quickly, as do the wire cloth pot stands.

One hopes the discussion can continue being substantive.

Some good points have been raised. But there are some potentially misleading ones as well. The differences in heat output and boiling times are sometimes substantial. Even alcohol stove advocates and supporters will admit that alcohol stoves are probably not the best choice for some applications. For example, cooking for a family or a group. Cooking for one might be okay (depending) with the lower output. Two: sometimes, but not as likely. Three: not so much. Four or more: pretty much a no go.

Melting snow for drinking water: alcohol wouldn't be the first choice.

Purifying drinking water in active lifestyle quantities: ditto.

Boiling larger amounts of water, especially in cold weather....

Preparing big pots of food for an oversized hungry boy who has been exercizing all day.

Using cooking styles or techniques that demand higher flames.

Sometimes one wants a higher flame.

How many professional kitchens or chefs choose maximum flame limits that are alcohol stove-like? Or flame control, or even minimum flame size, that is alcohol stove-like?

I was engaged to a highly regarded gourmet vegetarian professional cook, and built a house and equipped a kitchen with her. She would never have accepted these limitations. All three -- maximum flame; minimum flame; and fine, easy and immediate controllability -- can be important.

Alcohol stoves simply would not have cut it. Literally so.

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Another point that could be misleading to the OP is the additives-in-gasoline issue.

Until I actually started using it (after speaking with MSR engineers about using gasoline), I had thought the additives issue was much more of an issue than it really is -- as many people do. If you are using the stoves outside (as you should be with any stove), it's basically a non-issue.

I only fully realized how much of a non-issue this actually is after cooking with it myself.

Thanks goes out to MSR for setting me straight on this.

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After using a variety of alcohol stoves, including Trangias, my appreciation for certain little inventions began to kindle. I kept wanting to design certain improvements, like better and finer and easier and more immediate flame control. Like a storage bottle that would connect directly to the stove, to avoid having to repeatedly refill, and so often, or waste or run out of fuel. And metering the fuel would also be nice. And lo and behold, the concept of a valve began to emerge. And simple, convenient ways to control those valves.... Maybe something like a simple dial, or a small knob that one could turn. And then -- lo and behold -- it seemed that some designers and engineers at MSR had also worked on exactly these sorts of ideas, and had already implemented them.

And had even done a pretty good job with it....

Along with Primus and some others....

And lo, behold: the things wished for were provided.

Including stronger heat when needed or simply wanted.

Yes, some Scandanavian designs are good. And the Trangias are among the best alcohol stoves. But it seems to me that Primus has done at least as well with their designs.

Which also are Scandanavian.

And there are non-Scandanavian designs that are good as well.

Not trying to be argumentative - I just thought that since this was the touring section in a bicycle forum - that the choice of a stove would be in that context. So the only time I'm personally seen one person cooking for five or six other cyclists was on a supported tour in which a couple vans carried everybodys luggage around as well as a couple massive propane operated BBQs.

And that still didn't happen in temperatures where anyone had to melt snow for drinking water. I have done winter camping myself - but touring on a bike in snow isn't my idea of safe. Cars are enough of an issue when the roads are clear. And offroad -I'd think cross country or back country skiis would be a much better choice than a bicycle.

So who actually does this?

While pasta is usually cooked with plenty of water & drained, one can also cook it with just enough water to cover & get absorbed. Maybe a bit starchy & not gourmet but not bad either. Folks with a home dehydrator can bring along good lightweight veggies/fruit to add vitamins & flavor. In warm weather once could bring dried legumes to sprout--some can be eaten raw or else cooked quickly.

I've done it. Others here have done it. And I'm sure there are additional examples online.

Our friend from Vladivostok has some videos that speak to the quetion.

There is also bike touring in Alaska and Siberia in winter.

I've also cooked for 1-4. So has GF. Don't really need the 5 and 6. Three is more than enough. Even two. Even one. And much of what was said applies there.

The same with rice. That's when the pot cosy (I have been using a touque recently) comes in handy for conserving fuel and water. Heat, boil water for a few minutes, then cover for 10-15 minutes while the second pot is used to cook the topping.

My primary pot for a long time was a stainless steel Sigg one that came with a black coating on it. Over a period of time, the Trangia pot that fitted inside it also became black. When I brought a new Trangia on this trip, I bought a can of spray oven black and coating the outside of the two aluminium pots, to improve heat absorption.

I also don't get the melting ice thing. If you haven't got enough water with you that you have to resort to melting ice, you're already in trouble as a bicycle tourist.

As to cooking larger meals with alcohol, it is well known in yachting that propane and similar are very dangerous because any leaking gas settles in the bilges, and can lead to an explosion with just a simple spark. So gimbled marine stoves often are powered by methylated spirits that serve extremely good duty in preparing cooked meals (in cast iron pans, even) for crews on both leisure cruisers and ocean racers.

Cooking for two? I do it when Machka and I are camping. I was converted to a proper Trangia on a Christmas bike trips when a friend cooked eggs and bacon for breakfast... for five people... with one stove.

And here are some of the results of my cooking with a Trangia:

To answer the first question, you just look in the stove. The alcohol level is visible even when burning.

The second question is a good safety concern. Depending on the stove it is possible for the flame to be nearly invisible in daylight. I just squirt a few drops of water in the burner. If it sizzle add a bit more water until it stops. The water presents no problem because unlike liquid fuels like gasoline, kerosine (paraffin) and Coleman fuel, alcohol instantly mixes with water and will still burn.

So I'm thinking 'efficient' and 'effective' may have as much to do with the operator and cooking practices as the equipment. Possibly some people only need large pots and high heat outputs because - they think they do.

Let me know how you feel about this article - after you try it - not just after you read it.
http://mobile.seriouseats.com/2010/0...-food-lab.html

It might be worth pointing out here that while the pool of alcohol in these stoves provides some heat, its primary function is to evaporate the alcohol between the two walls of the burner and create a jet flame through the holes around the rim.

If the jets aren't evident, then the burner isn't really functioning at its hottest -- as when wanting to boil water.

The ring provided by Trangia covers the jets so they are turned off, and the shutter on the ring provide additional control over the flame left in the centre pool. An operator does need some practice to manipulate the ring, usually with the grippers.

Most people who haven't used Trangias or become skilled in them assume they are like the burners under bain maries used to keep buffet food warm. They aren't the same, at least based on the ones I have seen.

Thanks for the link, but for me, there is nothing really new there. In fact, my first wife taught me to add a small amount of olive oil to the water to prevent the pasta from sticking, and that was with copious quantities of water. I don't use it when camp cooking.

Unless you have potable water handy, the less you use, the better. And you adapt your cooking needs to suit.

But again, we're talking about bicycle touring. For most of us, having perfect al dente pasta isn't an absolute requirement. At the end of a long day, just about any food will taste good.

I'm sure chefisaac can come to terms with some of the challenges that involves.

There are quite a few riders every year in the Iditarod Trail Invitational... Thanks to fat-tire bikes like the Surly Pugsley, Salsa Mukluk, etc. snow biking is becoming more popular.

I've been waiting for this confession from a fellow touring cyclist for a long time. I have often suspected it is the coffee junkies among us that have the "burning need for speed." Being a civilized tea drinker, which constitutes a much slower and delicate unfolding from kettle to cup, I am just not in a great hurry to boil water. When making tea you do not want to burn the water.

I once made a cat can stove that out performed my Trangia/Optimus gas conversion burner. It out performed my 220 volt - 50 amp electric range! It got hot enough to melt a hole in my wind screen. I'll take it car camping with the family, but I have no need for that kind of heat output on a solo tour.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=286239
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=286240

Good point. In fact, I've found that it's not starchier at all, as have some gourmands:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/05/h...-food-lab.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/dining/25curi.html

There's no reason to overcook it (unless you like it that way--yuck!), no matter what kind of stove you're using.

Absolutely true, and also one of the reasons I quit cooking. "A bit starchy but not bad" eventually turned into "warm, salty glop".

I find it is a simple matter of looking. I also now how much within a ml or two what I need to say boil a cup of water or for my breakfast (30 ml to be precise).

Well I can only comment on my stove and I can easily tell how much fuel I have left.

Pour some more in when it has cooled down a touch ... only have to wait a minute or so.

Andrew

My current stove of choice is a Trail Designs Sidewinder Ti-Tri Cooking System, which is one of those evil alcohol stoves :)

http://i0.wp.com/www.aushiker.com/wp...size=550%2C412

For me it is:

(1) Light and packs down small;
(2) It is simple to use
(3) It is an efficient use of fuel and for me fuel is easy to get on the road;
(4) It is quiet in use - I just love the relaxed approach to cooking etc.

Regards
Andrew

With a few days experience, it is pretty easy to figure out how much alcohol fuel you need to boil a kettle of water.
The idea of adding a valve and fuel supply to a burner seems appealing but one of the main advantages of Trangia burners is that they never, ever fail. There is nothing to go wrong, break, replace. I managed to burn the rubber ring on the screw-down cap but the burner remained operational.
The simmer ring is brutally simple in design. It isn't the easiest thing to use and I generally adjust it with my leatherman pliers but once you get into the habit, it is OK. I can adjust mine in very fine increments.

The flame adjustment on a cat stove is...another cat stove. By adjusting pattern of holes that you punch, you can adjust the heat output.

"Butane" is short hand for a mixture of gases that are commonly used for backpacking stoves. The real mixture is a mixture of propane, butane and isobutane (which is really 2-methylpropane). I doubt that you can find pure butane for any stove because pure butane has a higher boiling point than the other gases. Once you add the gases together you can push the useful temperature down but not by too much.

If I were to do winter camping...not likely and really not all that germane to the thread...I'd use white gas (also known as naptha) rather than alcohol.

Not in any lab I've worked in within the last 35+ years. If we want to do any kind of glass work, we break out the bunsen burner...fueled by natural gas.

I would think that as a person who has been through that kind of experience, you might have some sympathy for others. Especially for others who have been forced through the same thing through the careless use of a piece of equipment that is faulty in design and hazardous in use.

It's simple thermodynamics. I didn't say that you can't boil water. I said it takes longer to boil water and more fuel. Pure Ethanol has a bit over half the heat energy of white gas or butane (which have roughly the same energy content). Add 5% water and the heat energy drops to half. Methanol has less than half the heat energy of butane. Since the rate of oxidation for fuels is roughly the same, the amount of time it takes to put a certain amount of heat into a body of water is independent of the fuel. If the fuel has less energy in it to begin with, it takes longer to heat the water. You can say that your alcohol stoves heat at the same rate as butane fueled stoves but you are experiencing an observational bias. The science behind burning fuel and heating water says otherwise.

Here's a question for all of you alcohol stove users: What fuel do you use at home for cooking? Do you use alcohol? If not, why not?

Actually, besides a bunsen burner - alcohol burners were standard equipment in high school and university laboratories when you and I were still in high school. https://www.fishersci.ca/browseResults.do?cid=2643531

They may not be now, but maybe if you had been paying more attention then - you would have graduated with better grades, a better outlook on life and felt you had less to prove. I think by the time you finally got your high school grades up to let you get college acceptance - I was being solicited by some of the department heads at McGill to proofread Ph.D. thesis's and collaborate on a scientific book dealing with some aspects of abstract physics. And I think I had already been working with high tech teams on neat projects like guidance systems for cruise missles and optical targeting systems for military helicopters for about ten years before you eventually struggled through your first degree.

You're clearly a legend in your own mind, and dispite multiple suggestions in other posts that we try to use these forums constructively - it still seems no-ones opinion is quite as qualified as yours. This is supposed to be an EXCHANGE of ideas and experience. Not just an effort to see who has the biggest mouth.There are lots of other users here from a variety of backgrounds with practical experience to share.

My house is all electric. I haven't found an extension cord long enough to take an electric grill touring.
By that same argument, I sleep on a Tempur-Pedic at home, but I'm certainly not going to try rolling it up and packing it into my bike. :)

This is simply not true. I have used Trangia stoves for decades and after 30 years of rugged use I had to replace the simmer ring ($5.00). Also every year or two I have to take a needle and clean the burner holes from spilled food and boil-overs.;)

I agree with the first part. I never wasted any fuel. I would fill it a little short, then add a few more drops if needed. My pepsi can stove retained so little heat energy in the few grams of aluminum, it took seconds to cool down and refill.

The only failure mode I can see with a Trangia is possibly stepping on it! I do not like camping equipment for which a repair kit is sold.

Depending on the trip I use alcohol (pop can stove) or butane (Pocket rocket).

Most bike tours I use the alcohol stove because I pretty much always fly to the start of my tour and generally tour far enough to need to buy more fuel along the way. I have had much more trouble finding canisters than alcohol along the way.

If I were to leave on a trip from home and wanted or needed to carry all of the fuel for the trip I'd go with the butane stove.

Alcohol is heavier per btu but since I buy in small quantities along the way and the stove is lighter, it winds up being less weight carried. If the time between restocking options gets longer the butane option gets to be lighter. That seems to only be the case for me on longer backpacking trips and not road tours.

Both stoves work great once you are used to them so I take the one that makes sense for the specific trip based on weight and fuel availability.