Good point. In fact, I've found that it's not starchier at all, as have some gourmands:

https://www.seriouseats.com/2010/05/h...-food-lab.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/dining/25curi.html

There's no reason to overcook it (unless you like it that way--yuck!), no matter what kind of stove you're using.

Absolutely true, and also one of the reasons I quit cooking. "A bit starchy but not bad" eventually turned into "warm, salty glop".

I find it is a simple matter of looking. I also now how much within a ml or two what I need to say boil a cup of water or for my breakfast (30 ml to be precise).

Well I can only comment on my stove and I can easily tell how much fuel I have left.

Pour some more in when it has cooled down a touch ... only have to wait a minute or so.

Andrew

My current stove of choice is a Trail Designs Sidewinder Ti-Tri Cooking System, which is one of those evil alcohol stoves



For me it is:

(1) Light and packs down small;
(2) It is simple to use
(3) It is an efficient use of fuel and for me fuel is easy to get on the road;
(4) It is quiet in use - I just love the relaxed approach to cooking etc.

Regards
Andrew

With a few days experience, it is pretty easy to figure out how much alcohol fuel you need to boil a kettle of water.
The idea of adding a valve and fuel supply to a burner seems appealing but one of the main advantages of Trangia burners is that they never, ever fail. There is nothing to go wrong, break, replace. I managed to burn the rubber ring on the screw-down cap but the burner remained operational.
The simmer ring is brutally simple in design. It isn't the easiest thing to use and I generally adjust it with my leatherman pliers but once you get into the habit, it is OK. I can adjust mine in very fine increments.

The flame adjustment on a cat stove is...another cat stove. By adjusting pattern of holes that you punch, you can adjust the heat output.

"Butane" is short hand for a mixture of gases that are commonly used for backpacking stoves. The real mixture is a mixture of propane, butane and isobutane (which is really 2-methylpropane). I doubt that you can find pure butane for any stove because pure butane has a higher boiling point than the other gases. Once you add the gases together you can push the useful temperature down but not by too much.

If I were to do winter camping...not likely and really not all that germane to the thread...I'd use white gas (also known as naptha) rather than alcohol.

Not in any lab I've worked in within the last 35+ years. If we want to do any kind of glass work, we break out the bunsen burner...fueled by natural gas.

I would think that as a person who has been through that kind of experience, you might have some sympathy for others. Especially for others who have been forced through the same thing through the careless use of a piece of equipment that is faulty in design and hazardous in use.

It's simple thermodynamics. I didn't say that you can't boil water. I said it takes longer to boil water and more fuel. Pure Ethanol has a bit over half the heat energy of white gas or butane (which have roughly the same energy content). Add 5% water and the heat energy drops to half. Methanol has less than half the heat energy of butane. Since the rate of oxidation for fuels is roughly the same, the amount of time it takes to put a certain amount of heat into a body of water is independent of the fuel. If the fuel has less energy in it to begin with, it takes longer to heat the water. You can say that your alcohol stoves heat at the same rate as butane fueled stoves but you are experiencing an observational bias. The science behind burning fuel and heating water says otherwise.

Here's a question for all of you alcohol stove users: What fuel do you use at home for cooking? Do you use alcohol? If not, why not?

Actually, besides a bunsen burner - alcohol burners were standard equipment in high school and university laboratories when you and I were still in high school. https://www.fishersci.ca/browseResults.do?cid=2643531

They may not be now, but maybe if you had been paying more attention then - you would have graduated with better grades, a better outlook on life and felt you had less to prove. I think by the time you finally got your high school grades up to let you get college acceptance - I was being solicited by some of the department heads at McGill to proofread Ph.D. thesis's and collaborate on a scientific book dealing with some aspects of abstract physics. And I think I had already been working with high tech teams on neat projects like guidance systems for cruise missles and optical targeting systems for military helicopters for about ten years before you eventually struggled through your first degree.

You're clearly a legend in your own mind, and dispite multiple suggestions in other posts that we try to use these forums constructively - it still seems no-ones opinion is quite as qualified as yours. This is supposed to be an EXCHANGE of ideas and experience. Not just an effort to see who has the biggest mouth.There are lots of other users here from a variety of backgrounds with practical experience to share.

My house is all electric. I haven't found an extension cord long enough to take an electric grill touring.
By that same argument, I sleep on a Tempur-Pedic at home, but I'm certainly not going to try rolling it up and packing it into my bike.

This is simply not true. I have used Trangia stoves for decades and after 30 years of rugged use I had to replace the simmer ring ($5.00). Also every year or two I have to take a needle and clean the burner holes from spilled food and boil-overs.

I agree with the first part. I never wasted any fuel. I would fill it a little short, then add a few more drops if needed. My pepsi can stove retained so little heat energy in the few grams of aluminum, it took seconds to cool down and refill.

The only failure mode I can see with a Trangia is possibly stepping on it! I do not like camping equipment for which a repair kit is sold.

Depending on the trip I use alcohol (pop can stove) or butane (Pocket rocket).

Most bike tours I use the alcohol stove because I pretty much always fly to the start of my tour and generally tour far enough to need to buy more fuel along the way. I have had much more trouble finding canisters than alcohol along the way.

If I were to leave on a trip from home and wanted or needed to carry all of the fuel for the trip I'd go with the butane stove.

Alcohol is heavier per btu but since I buy in small quantities along the way and the stove is lighter, it winds up being less weight carried. If the time between restocking options gets longer the butane option gets to be lighter. That seems to only be the case for me on longer backpacking trips and not road tours.

Both stoves work great once you are used to them so I take the one that makes sense for the specific trip based on weight and fuel availability.

You are correct. But cooling butane to convert it back to a liquid only works with the pure substance (like the fuel in the tank or canister), not from an air and butane mixture. A few years ago I had an older puncture type Bluet GAZ cartridge on a heater that I wanted to switch from the heater to a stove. That type of cartridge has to stay on the device until it is empty due to lack of shut off valve on the canister. I set these components outside when it was well below freezing (0 degrees C) until they reached the outside temperature, I then switched the canister from the heater to the stove without any problem. Some of those canisters use an isobutane mix, some older ones (like the one I swapped from one device to another) were pure butane. I would not have attempted that with an isobutane mix.

On a four day trip a few years ago, I brought all of my partially used canisters, used up all but one of them. I usually weigh my canisters when they are full and assume that they contain the rated amount of fuel, I then mark the bottom with how many grams the canister weighs full. From that I can estimate how much fuel is left by weighing them later. Since it was only a four day trip, I had a lot of extra space so I could carry several extra partially full (or partially empty if you prefer) canisters.

The older Bluet GAZ cartridges (some of which I still own) are pure butane, not a mixture. I believe that they are no longer made in pure butane.

Regarding cold weather camping, in my post number 34 (above) I stated: "For longer trips or when it will get cold, liquid fuel." and "I still have several older Gaz cartridges that I want to get rid of, so I expect to use my vintage Bluet stove on some warm weather trips, but I am not buying more of these cartridges."

Since some people appear to be afraid or incapable of controlling a very simple, small alcohol fire contained in a very stable Trangia or similar burner and call it "faulty in design and hazardous in use" but appear to believe that gas stoves are perfectly safe: gas stoves can and do explode occasionally. There are plenty of examples online and 3 kids were also brought to the hospital at a festival I attended after their gas stove exploded in their face while they were cooking. This is how it works:
When using a wind screen around the burner and canister the temperature of the canister and thus the contained gas will rise, increasing the vapour pressure of the gas. For a 70/30 butane/propane mixture the pressure inside the container will rise from 1 barg at 0°C to about 6 barg at 40°C, further increasing with temperature, that's quite an increase. Obviously gas containers have their limits and will burst when the internal pressure becomes too big compared to atmospheric pressure. With careful use, this shouldn't be a problem though and you'd have to do your best to overheat an external fuel bottle connected by hose to the actual burner.

So safety risks gas vs alcohol:
- gas: don't overheat your gas canister or it will explode. (a pure butane canister from Campingaz has a warning on it not to heat the canister above 50°C for risk of explosion)
- alcohol: don't throw over your alcohol stove or you will have to extinguish the fire with some water, also don't add alcohol to the burner when the fire is still going or if the burner itself is still very hot.

Gas canisters that I've seen around here (Europe) are clearly marked whether they contain pure butane or a mixture of butane and propane, both are sold. In the latter case the mixture composition is also mentioned since the propane addition does bring the usable temperature down a lot: a 70/30 butane/propane mix has a boiling temperature of around -20°C, which is quite a bit better than the 100% butane canister that only boils at 0°C. A pure propane canister even starts to boil at -40°C. Available in the local outdoor store are Campingaz with a 80/20 mixture rated to -10°C, Campingaz pure butane, Coleman with a 70/30 mix and Primus with a "4 season" mixture of 50% butane, 25% propane and 25% isobutane.
So no, don't expect butane canisters to contain a mixture of propane and butane by default and no, the difference is not small, there really is a big difference in usable temperature range by adding propane (and/or isobutane).

Winter camping is really nice by the way, especially in snowy forests.

But again, all 3 burner types (multifuel, alcohol and gas) are all usable for camping. I've happily used both gas and alcohol stoves and look forward to try out a multifuel burner one day. Choose a type based on your preferences and the conditions in which you plan to travel. And don't forget the alternatives including wood and Esbit blocks.

I've never found this to be a problem. I find I can pretty reliably put in just enough fuel for what I am cooking and have no further need to evaluate how much is left.

With a pop can stove there is so little mass that it cools almost immediately. Even if you add alcohol immediately, very little vapor is produced. Bottom line is that I have never found this to be a problem. The greater mass of a brass stove like the trangia may make this more of an issue.


I agree that is an advantage of the butane stove over pop can stoves.

That said I don't really find it to be all that big of a deal for me when touring. You can do a number of things to get some adjustment in heat with the pop can stoves. One way is a diffuser plate, another is a simmer ring, another is raising the pot a bit higher, and yet another is having a different simmer burner (at under .5 ounces carrying an extra burner isn't a problem). None of those allow super fine control, but they work well enough.

If all other factors were equal I'd use butane for it's better flame control, but when alcohol is the lighter option I will use it for that reason. Similarly I am likely to use it for availability reasons. I know some folks report excellent availability for butane canisters, but I have not found that to be the case in a lot of the places I have toured, and I have always been able to find alcohol.

Can we keep please keep the thread about stoves and not black pots and kettles?

You know there are forum rules about respect. Calling into question my intellect and my grades is violating those rules. Attacking the man is just a cheap trick by people who have no other recourse and whose arguments are weak. Talk to the point of the argument. You have no idea what my grades in college were, when I graduated from college or anything else about me. In other words, your entire post is nothing but insulting drivel meant to do exactly what you say that I am doing, i.ee. making yourself a legend in your own tiny little mind. Where have you been constructive? I pointed out a mistake on your part and all you can do is deflect it with insults that I should report to the moderators.

Now, as for having alcohol burners in labs when I was in college, there were none. There hadn't been any for several years. They are, and were, crappy heat sources and dangerous to use. Again, no one that I have known has used one for more than 3 decades.

Not when you lecture me with attitude.

We're not talking about a laboratory, we are talking about cooking on a bicycle tour.

Adding a bit of salt to alcohol fuel will give a yellow sodium flame without affect the cooking properties, and make it visible in daylight.

And as for cooking for multiple people, carry multiple stoves--or have them carry a few 10 gram stoves and a pot themselves, the lazy bums!

When on a big group van-supported tour, we used a massive cast-iron 2-burner propane setup hooked up to a one-gallon tank, that weighed about 10 kg altogether. That beats anything for cooking for 23 people. You can cook a heck of a lot of French toast in a hurry on something like that.

I have used my Trangia to cook at home. For weeks at a time. Breakfast and dinners/suppers. Nourishing meals that kept a hard-working farm hand in business.

You are the one who said he didn't want to wait all day to boil water. Maybe that was your now-familiar entree into telling us about how inefficient alcohol is. Theory is one thing; practice is another thing entirely.

Keep going, cyccommute, you are just confirming even more that you don't have a clue about using alcohol burner stoves.

I've used both canister and Trangia. It's all good. Nowadays I mostly use a Mini-Trangia. The simmer ring is really good. Bring to the boil without it, then just put it on to keep simmering. The "fully open" simmer ring is just right for simmering in most outdoor conditions. The lid works fine as a frying pan.

Good wind protection makes a lot of difference to cooking time/fuel consumption.

Mostly I do coffee water, beans and rice, pasta etc. in the mini-trangia. For more ambitious cooking the larger Trangia with two pots is better.

Canisters have become more expensive in europe from what I've seen recently.

Oh, and about refilling a "hot" trangia burner, Just fill it with water and tip out again before putting more alcohol in. Works for me... I find however that I've got pretty good at estimating, if I may say so myself!