I've just purchased a size 64 Surly LHT frame and fork and want to start building it up.

For now, I'll just be transferring the parts from my faithful Giant hybrid. The Deore LX drivetrain, Brooks B17, "trekkiing" butterfly handlebars, shifters, V brakes, Deore cranks, bottom bracket and headset are all of acceptable quality (and have proven themselves to be extremely reliable) so will probably get to remain.

This bike isn't going to be used for any super long tours - at least I doubt it - but it will be on the road for a few weeks on the time, very heavily loaded. It will also be used for commuting every day, as well as generally being beaten up. I myself weigh 200lb. I am a tall guy, composed mostly of legs (hence the gynormous frame) and am, I guess, a powerful rider (read - stomper).

In most hobbies and disciplines there tend to be a few "classic" items that everybody agrees upon as being reliable and value for money. Reading on this forum makes me think that the Brooks B17 saddle and the Surly frame fit into this category.

What I really want to know is what you guys would place in this category regarding wheels.

I have no real reason to complain about my current wheels (Alexrims DA22 with very cheap but cheerful Shimano hubs) as they are easy to service and have yet to go significantly out of true despite years of beating. However, I'm not sure I'd feel confident taking them on an extended tour with all that extra weight. I'd also rather like to get a dynamo hub - I gather that the Shimano DH 3N72A is about $100 and works well.

I don't think you'll find anything as ubiquitous as the B17-LHT combo but I can recommend this front wheel from Harris Cyclery. 36 spokes, Alfine generator, Sun rims described "Overkill? Maybe. Let’s just call it a rim you can ride over hill and dale without bothering to pack a spoke wrench" $180 + $12 to have Harris fix the machine-built true and tension.

As for rear hubs, I'm a cup and cone man. Deore/LX/XT with 36 spokes on a decent rim and you're good to go.

Personally, I opted for disk brakes because the wheels will last a lifetime with proper maintenance, among other reasons.

snafuspyramid, Wheelsets and their individual parts are usually a hot topic. I bought the Alivio/CR18 wheelset from Harris and I'm quite pleased with their performance both on and off road. Like all machine built wheels I had to restress and retrue, but that was expected. If you back up a page from the link in post #2 you'll find some of the other popular touring wheelsets.

Brad

Check out Hands on Wheels in San Francisco and Peter White Cycles in the Northeast. Both guys are wheel specialists who build a lot of touring wheels. I got mine from Hands on Wheels and can recommend Rich without reservation. Price is very reasonable.

Classic touring wheelset? How about 36 spoke Mavic A719 with XT (or LX) hubs and DT Swiss spokes.

Cheaper: A319 with Deore hubs

More expensive: Phil Woods hubs (great field serviceability).

Even more bombproof: DT Swiss Alpine III spokes

Another to add to that list is Sugar Wheel Works in Portland, OR. I had excellent service.

FWIW, I had a set of disc touring wheels built by https://www.prowheelbuilder.com/ a couple of years ago, and in spite of my best efforts at overloading my bike and hitting every pothole dead on, they have never gone even a smidge out of true.

I also had a set of wheels built for my Pelican by BoxDog Bikes in San Francisco last year, and they've never needed even the slightest tweak.

Even more sturdy 40 and 48 spoke wheels.. , but 36 is common enough ..

If you dont go in for expensive parts to build something super nice..

you can always just buy a replacement wheel mid trip if you crash or are hit,
and abandon the damaged one..

Most shops are going to take a while to rebuild a new rim on your $300. ish hub,

And you may need to stay in a hotel until its repaired.


or mail your super nice hub home. & still use the off the peg wheel in the shop.

It's difficult to shop for touring-capable 700c wheels, because >95% of them are intended for racy road bikes - low spoke count, narrow rims - both unsuited for durability under perhaps 250-300 lbs load. Even the once standard 32h road racing wheels are now rare.

As others have already stated, you'll want to choose 36h for added wheel longevity, these can still be found. If you go to 40h or 48h it really narrows your choices of available rims and hubs, and also becomes more expensive. Dynohub also narrows choices and raises price.

Many tourists resort to custom wheel builds to get what they want, again more expensive than wheels mass produced to a price point. Some of us even build our own wheels, since it's not that hard and basic tools are cheap ($5 spoke wrench). DIY can be inexpensive and get you the wheel you want.

Shimano Deore, LX, XT hubs are very popular because they're a consistent good value. Hope and DT makes good mid-level hubs, and Phil Wood at the top of the cost range.

DT Swiss and Wheelsmith spokes are very popular, either straight gauge 2.0mm or butted gauge 1.7-1.8/2.0mm. Some choose DT Alpine for heavy duty uses, very strong but very expensive. Plain ole straight gauge spokes work fine and usually cost about half as much as butted, which will add $30 or more to the cost of a wheelset.

Rims are the hardest choice because there are so many available. Because touring usually involves wider, heavier tires, it makes sense to use a wider rim, which is naturally heavier. Rim width is usually indicated as inside width, add ~5mm to determine outside width. There are a lot of disc-only rims nowadays, they are nearly the same as rim-brake-compatible rims, they simply lack a flat brake track, the sides are angled towards the spoke holes, which looks nice and saves material/weight. Rims with a brake track can be used for both rim and disc braked wheels.

Leading rim makers are Mavic and Velocity, these are used widely by custom and self builders. DT Swiss are popular but expensive. Alex are also popular for mass produced wheels, because they are very inexpensive. Despite their cheapness they seem to hold up well. Surly has used the Alex Adventurer rim since 2004 for the complete LHT with very few complaints. Alex rims cost 25-45 USD, vs 50-80 for Velocity, 50-100 for Mavic, 70-120 for DT Swiss - so you can see why Alex rims are so popular in built wheels. I used Alex TD17 rims ($22) for my wheel build for a Surly DT, they are fine after ~1000 miles so far. Hard to not like Alex when I've gotten the same results with $70 rims.

Nipples are made in brass and aluminum. Al cost more and saves weight, but they break a lot more often than brass. Brass is the way to go to keep it simple.

Front and rear wheels, hubs or rims don't have to match, although most people buy them this way. For touring (and even non-touring) most (60-75%) of the load is on the rear wheel. If you have to cut costs, cut on the front wheel, put your money in the rear wheel. A custom 48h rear and a plain 36h front will work.

I hesitate to make specific recommendations since things that are a good deal here in USA are not necessarily so in Australia. I googled "touring wheels", here's a few interesting finds:

https://store.velocityusa.com/p/dyad-...uring-wheelset

https://www.co-motion.com/index.php/p...uring-wheelset

https://www.rivbike.com/product-p/18103.htm + https://www.rivbike.com/product-p/18102.htm

https://www.aebike.com/Handspun-Pavem...r_p_31663.html + https://www.aebike.com/Handspun-Pavem...r_p_31557.html

My opinion closely follows what seeker333 posted.

I think the utilitarian version of "classic" touring wheels use some combination of the following components: Shimano LX or XT 36 spoke hubs, DT or Wheelsmith spokes and Alex, Mavic, or Velocity rims. There are folks that talk about Phil Wood and White Industry hubs, but those are at the high end of the spectrum. I'm sure that there are several other good combinations out there, but these are the components that seem to come up the most. They are also the components most manufacturers use as OE on their touring bikes.

I have 3 sets of wheels made by Universal Cycles in Portland. They were all built for loaded touring. Two pairs of those wheels have seen some pretty hard use. The hubs are the only differences. We used XT, Ultegra, and 105- 36 spoke hubs. Two of the bikes have 130 mm rear dropouts.

The pair on my LHT are: 36 spoke XT hubs, 700c Velocity Dyad rims, Wheelsmith DB spokes, with brass nipples. The reason I went with the Dyads rather than Mavic rims was the weight. The Mavic 719, 319 and 119 rims are great rims, but a little on the heavier side. We also have a couple of bikes with the the original equipment Mavic 119 rims, and LX hubs that have held up very well. I put them on the LHT when I first buit it up, and it is just turning over 7,000 miles. The majority of that is loaded touring. No problems at all. My wife has the set with the Ultegra hubs on her bike, and has slightly more miles on her wheels. She is pretty light and rides a 49 cm frame. It is no surprise that her wheels have also held up very well. On the firsts tour after we put on those wheels, part of our route took us over 400+ miles of dirt and unsurfaced roads and trails, and 500+ miles of cobble stone/paver block roads and trails. I was really glad we decided to go with the new wheels.

Universal Cycles allow you to choose your components, building a custom wheel. Their prices are very reasonable, often less than the cost of tthe individual componets if purchased separately. They also provide exceptional cotomer service and fast delivery.
https://www.universalcycles.com/wheelkit.php

Reading about touring bikes, I came to the conclusion that if Velocity rims were good enough for Peter White, Wheelbuilder.com, Co-motion etc to use and recommend then that was good enough for me.
I've just had build up, some touring wheels for my Surly Ogre. I went with a Son28 and Rohloff (both disk braked), 36 spokes (Sapim CX-Ray) and Velocity Dyad rims. I went with the Sapim spokes and Dyad rims as I wanted to slightly counter the Ogres hefty weight hopefully without compromising the strength of the wheels. My choice of hubs hasnt helped in the weight stakes. My Ogres nearly complete and I cant wait to rock n roll. My post is not to suggest you follow in the tyreprints of my dream build but merely to echo the 36 spoke mantra. As to what you've already got..... ride em till they drop would be my advice with the caveat of keeping them maintained with a tension check before each tour. No point in going to the expense of new wheels till the old ones die (unless of course you fancy a bit of retail therapy which we all enjoy from time to time)

Agreed. It occurs to me that these wheels have served me well. When I do replace them, I'll keep the rims and practice building my own wheels with them. I will content myself with overhauling them again - I haven't done this in years - and inspecting the bearings.

As for the groupset, I've acquired a Shimano SLX groupset for the transmission (derailleurs, shifters, BB, cranks, cassette). I've also got a Cane Creek S-1 traditional threaded headset and new Avid levers (the headset on my old bike won't fit). I'll be transporting the stem, bars and seatpost from my old bike. Total cost including the frame is still less than $1000, although I did spend a bit more than that on a fancy Italian torque wrench and Giant 7nm torque key.

Labour costs might be a bit more - I'll probably have the LBS seat the crown race, star nut and headset. Too much trouble to do it myself.

Do bear in mind there is wear on the brake track on the sides of the rims.

so that is not the part I'd keep, Id start from scratch , if a new hub appeals, get the rest new too..

Guilty as charged. I had a set of wheels built on Phil Wood hubs back in the mid-'80s and finally retired them a few years back because the rear flange had worn out. The darn things only had 250,000 miles on them, much of it loaded and often off-road under my 190 pound body. Some things are worth the extra expense.

I am of the opinion that current XT M770/M775 rear hubs are a weak link and should be avoided in a touring bike. LX is IMO a better choice since it has a much, much better freehub. Surly went to LX hubs on their LHTs a couple years ago, I think due to reports of total failure in the XT freehubs. Even plain-jane Deore is better than XT for a touring bike, IMO, which is what I have now.

XT M770 rear hubs have a 14mm axle which itself is a specialty part, they require a 14mm allen wrench for repair which is also not terribly common (good luck finding one to buy in a shop somewhere. Seriously, I live in a good-sized city and nobody had one to buy), and since the axle is larger but needs to fit into the same freehub shell as other 8-9-10 speed wheels something has to give spacewise -- the pawls and ratchet mechanism are weak and prone to catastrophic failure, as in you're not riding anywhere. I've had it happen, so have many others. Also, since the axle is 14mm, it's impossible to swap another freehub model with the typical 10mm allowance. A shop in a remote location might happen to have a replacement freehub in stock, if you're lucky.

It's one thing if you're near a shop that has the parts in stock, but I'm not sure if I would want to take that chance any more.

Current XT everything else is great, just not the rear hubs, and the old XT rear hubs with the 10mm axle are good too, but you can probably find better these days.

I too had a mid 80s purchase of a Phil Wood hub, I got a 48hole hubshell at a Sausalito Bike Shop Garage sale

PW put the axle assembly in it, I laced it up Cross 5 to a Mavic mod 4 rim, and rode them
for a long time.

front was a 40 hole , same rim.. sold it as a set to someone in metro DC area

then built the next 40/48 set around Bullseye hubs, easily replaced bearings
and Sun Rhyno 'not light' rims , still have those, ..
176 spokes , only broke 1 , Rt Rear on the Phil/Mavic set.

I use a 13-34t freewheel in 7 'speeds'.. 50,40,24t crank got the job done..

Have you experienced this or personally know anyone that has experienced it?

Yes, me personally. Last year the XT freehub on my LHT suddenly and dangerously failed to the point where it was totally useless, though luckily I was near enough to my house when this occurred. There were symptoms leading up to this that I didn't identify at the time, mostly something similar to intermittent chain suck from the cassette when I'd stop pedaling, but I didn't realize it was a part inside the freehub itself that was causing this.

When it finally failed it essentially became a fixed gear ...except for when the pedals would slip a few revolutions without engaging anything at all. Totally unrideable. A lot of times when a freehub quits catching you can shoot some solvent into it to free up the gunk and get it working again (at least for a while), but in the XT's case the internal mechanism was literally smashed to smithereens. Once I got the super-fragile seal off the end covering the bearings little bits of metal shards came out.

Now that's bad enough just pedaling around town, but on a bike tour should something break, IMO, it's important to have the part be easily serviceable with readily available parts, which the XT FH-M770 was not due largely to the 14mm axle. I called around and most shops would have had to order parts to fix it whereas they all would have had me up and running with virtually any other commonly available Shimano hub. This was in a good-sized city, I have no idea about shops in smaller towns, but chances are I'd have been waiting around for a while...

Many, probably most people will ride this hub with zero problems, but I don't trust it any more and can't recommend it as a reliable component.

I'm increasingly realising that hubs are a point of great concern for touring cyclists. My current wheels have hubs which are, by most standards, cheap and absolute rubbish (Shimano Altus I think - mainly specced for children's bikes). However, they are very simple, serviceable and have got me this far. So again, I won't replace them until they fail (or until I'm planning a big tour).

I discussed wheels with my LBS. They strongly recommended rims from Stan's Notubes together with Novatec hubs, machine made and tension adjusted at the shop. They are also fond of Alexrim rims for value. How does this sound? I've never even heard of Stan's.

snafuspyramid, Those hubs are inexpensive, but as you know, aren't rubbish. Ride your current wheelset until the braking surfaces indicate replacement time.

Brad

Thanks, that is good to know. There have been a lot of rumors and second and third hand reports about XT hub problems on this forum, but I believe you are the first person that I can remember with first hand experience.

I run both XT and LX hubs on my touring bikes. I have a little over 7000 miles of loaded touring on the XT hubs with no issues so far. I'll probably continue to run them until I do have a problem. The XT wheels are better built than my LX wheels (maybe). My next long tour, starting in June will be in Canada, so I am not too much more than a 2 day delivery of a new freehub.

Stans rims are great if you want to build/ride tubeless tires and low pressure for mtbing, otherwise they are unremarkable for touring puposes.

Novatec and Joytech hubs are relative newcomers. They are mostly sold in built wheels, hardly any are sold in aftermarket for wheelbuilders, except for SS where they are popular for their pretty colors. Many (all?) of the Stans wheels are built with these hubs, which is probably the whole basis for your LBS's recommendation - i.e. the hubs aren't that special, the wheels just come built that way.

Personally I would choose Shimano Deore 530 hubs for a LHT build (or their replacement - 590s), they are a great value, cost less than Novatec and will probably outlast them, plus parts are more readily available. Combine with Alex Adventurer rims for a solid, inexpensive wheel. I already told you this in #9, I suggest you read it again.

Your LBS's advice makes me think they don't build wheels at all (like most LBSs these days) and probably have little to offer you WRT good advice on wheel components or touring-capable wheels (again few LBSs know anything but mtbs and road bikes). I suggest you take the wheel purchase seriously, as they are the most expensive "part" on a bike after the frameset, and find someone who can sell you a touring wheelset, or better yet build them to your specification.

You don't have to spend a lot to get decent touring wheels, and really it's not smart to splurge on them. Everything on a bike wears out eventually.

now the top end MTB hubs went to a fat Aluminum axle, then reduced the bearing ball size.
light , for racing , is not necessarily the ideal for touring/..

I've read of bearing/cup/cone troubles only on the revised XT hubs, which is logical since they use smaller 3/16" balls (like front hubs) to accommodate the 14mm diameter Al axle (vs the old 10mm steel axle), in a hub shell with the same external dimensions. While the axle is stiffer and less likely to bend (good for jumping off rocks), smaller bearings wear faster for a given load, and are more susceptible to damage from grit/foreign contaminants (bad for tourists).

This is the first time I've read of a newer XT freewheel failure (well, outside of mtbr.com, where they manage to break everything). Troubling news since Deore-LX-XT-XTR freewheels were highly reliable (and largely interchangeable) for a decade or more.

I've gotten 15-20K miles on a couple XT rear hubs, fronts go even longer. I recall retiring a FH-M750 at 22,000 miles - a groove had worn into the cup, and it had begun to get a little rough. 750 hubs cost ~50 bux only a few years ago, so I pitched it.

I had another FH-M750 die at about 15,000 miles, due to user error. I washed the bike with hose, blasted the cassette area clean, parked bike for 2-3 days. When I took it out the rear hub was partly seized. Inspection revealed corroded balls, pitted cups and cones. I repacked it and tried riding it, it was still rough. Lesson learned - never wash bike with hose, never immerse hub in water, repack bearings immediately if this happens. Shimano hub seals are not waterproof. They'll resist rain, and that's their limit.

thanks all of you for the specific parts suggestions, as well as the places with good reputations that build wheels.
Its great to hear first hand experience of both. Shall keep these all in mind. I should get a new 26 rear wheel for one of my bikes, and will use the suggestions here to start asking around, and the place Doug referred to for at least a rough reference of costs.