Regarding popularity, somebody pointed out the Trek's as an example, what is the driving factor in people NOT getting a IGH? I can't imagine a situation where the average consumer would care, as long as it shifted. Was price, bike style, etc pushing them towards a Der? Exact same bike, one IGH vs Der, same price?

What don't you like about Hydros, I am curious as the hydros I have used are FAR superior to any cable braking systems I've used. Better modularity, less maintenance, easier to adjust, more power, the list goes on. The only saving grace I have found with cables is cost and they don't need to be bled. I'm not necessarily and advocate of them for touring, but for everything else....sign me up.

veganbikes:
Sorry how your attempt to start a good discussion and have a little fun turned out. Really, sorry; this sort of thing is all too common around here.


Been Thinking:

In my first offering to this discussion I said that I'd like a belt-drive IGH but that I couldn't afford such a thing (Rohloff, Paterson Drive, custom frame, belt drive, etcetera).
Instead, I gave my personal practical choice (Surly LHT disc frame & Shimano XT group set).

I would be satisfied with either set-up as neither is likely to fail under the rather moderate loads of road touring. However, Shimano XT, and its lesser ken, parts are available just about anywhere in North America; replacement/repair should be easy and quick if I ride into an accident of some sort. I am capable of most any repair on the road including building wheels. I can take care of the chain & sprockets; it's a small price to pay for being able to build the bike at all. Either way, I'd be sure to take the more obvious repair parts with me; there aren't many and they don't weigh much.

Ultimate is a difficult word. It implies something perfect, and, of course, there is no such thing. To me the ultimate touring bike would be the one under me when we're together on the open road and having fun.

Remember Y’all, rubber side down ;o)
Joe

Took too long for someone to say this. While I am down for a good scrap once in a while (especially with these folks in my corner) I will fight, to my last breath, for Jaywalk3r's right to ride whatever bike makes him happy.


To answer the question posed by nickw:

Rolhoff Disc Derailleur: $1,459

Shimano XT Rear/Front Derailleur, Cassette: $120-160

Kind of like comparing the Toyota to the Mercedes Benz, though. Both get you there, but there are advantages to owning a Benz.

The Rohloff hubs costs about as much as a pretty good touring bike like the Surly LHT.

I don't get your priorities, touring isn't about the marketing needs of a manufacturer to sell a complete "gruppo". In my mind the ultimate gruppo really is a mixed set of components as some fail along the way and you replace with what's available or affordable. When I raced none of my bikes were built from a complete gruppo.

Seems to me if you're looking for a TOURING gruppo it involves touring gear. A REI tent with REI shoes socks stove and panniers. Now that's a gruppo

Sure to get murdered for saying this, especially in this forum, but I think Carbon fiber has many uses in touring, especially rims...assuming disc brakes are used. Some of the Chinese stuff (Light Bicycle) is pretty affordable also, maybe a $250 premium over Alum rims.

I was referring the poser who said this:

"People buy what their peers are riding. Not too many people riding IGH bikes. At the moment, there are more IGH bikes for sale than ever. Most people don't buy them, while similar style derailleur drivetrain bikes sell well.

It is not getting more popular. It might get more press, but that does not mean actual sales. Trek did a full court press with IGH bikes not too long ago, now they have dropped most of their IGH models. Because they didn't sell. "

Wondering why they didn't sell. I don't think the root cause is IGH since most consumers flick a lever and it shifts der or IGH. Possible due to price? Maybe the IGH bikes were more upscale, or the same price with low end parts?

An IGH drivetrain is always heavier, so you never see it on a professional bike. Since the Pros in the Tour de France drive sales all the way down to the 5 year olds, everyday users buy the same bikes that they see on T.V. during the TDF, the Olympics, races, movies like Premium Rush, etc.

Here's a fallacy: the derailleur and the IGH are neck and neck, and the Americans are behind the times.

Not even close. The Derailleur is the superior system for 90% of users, possibly 95% of users. Sure, you could say Joe Schmo Cyclist could technically use an 11-speed Alfine and benefit in his commute, but Joe Schmo isn't gonna drop $1000.

Your still missing my point. They may not put IGH's on racing bikes (which I'm quite familiar with), I don't think the average consumer gives a damn *how* it shifts. Them not buying IGH's is not directly tied to them wanting a Der but rather the package the Trek as put together, maybe heavier and more expensive....potentially being the real reason they are making their decision.

I firmly believe that IGH's are the right thing for the majority of 'common' users from a technical point of view. They'd take their bike in for Der adjustment anyways, with the IGH I see longer service intervals, more consistent shifting and less chance of damage.

I'm not super familiar with the different models on the market, but after a quick search on Universal Cycles, they don't seem hugely more expensive than a mid-tier Der system, at least for the 8-spd stuff.

For fux sake, you people are cheap and unimaginative. Surely ya'll can think of things you would want and like in a gruppo? I am not asking to debate which religion is better or who wore it best, I just wanted to come together and be creative. I screwed that one up, I guess. I know we mix and match but what about those parts do we like and what would we change and improve upon and what doesn't exist that maybe should.

It is not marketing it is just talking bike tech because we are on a bike forum so we must like bikes and what goes along with them or what the heck are we doing here? I surely can't be the only gear nerd here who thinks about designing their own gear and what improvements I would make to stuff?

Ah well back to the wood paneled basement to play Dungeons and Dragons, drink store brand cola and listen to Rush (the Rush part is true)

I'm not going to murder you, but disagree strongly. Once, an hour into a day of touring, I hit a sewer grate that some jerk had installed parallel to the road (it was one with bars only going only one direction; I fell in between the bars) while going downhill. I couldn't safely swerve around it, I tried to jump it, but my rear wheel, with touring weight, hit the other side pretty dead-on. It bent the crap out of my wheel, but 10 minutes on the side of the road with my spoke wrench and I had a straight wheel with ridiculous spoke tension and a funny hop. I rode 50 more miles to the next town on my wonky wheel- it felt like I was riding down railroad tracks (between the tracks), but I got there with minimal delay and bought any old new wheel with a shimano hub and whatever rim, cut the old hub out for a new/later build, and continued on my way. That day on a carbon rim would have been a lot of sitting on the road staring at an exploded wheel that you can't just force into a shape.

What makes you think a carbon rim is ideal over aluminum? And do those super-cheap ebay rims actually weigh less than an aluminum touring or mountain bike rim? Not all carbon is light and not all aluminum is heavy.

Related thought, another cool thing about Shimano is that their hubs (among other parts) share a lot of dimensions. It makes lacing their wheels a breeze, and if you, for random example, pull an XT wheel and cassette off of your bike and stick a Deore or LX hub with the same tooth count (and preferably brand) back into the bike, you won't need to do any derailer adjustment. That kind of design stands for a lot of shimano hardware, and just adds to my reason why they are the ultimate touring bike hardware manufacturer.

Also, I don't get how you guys can dis disc brakes. I too see a lot of value in V brakes; I love the older generations of XT/XTRs with pivots that keep the pads aligned with the rims, and even a $20-30 V gives a lot of stopping power. But you're putting your wear on your rims... those rims that are holding a very heavy bike off the ground and that cost a lot of money, whereas a disc rotor is easily and cheaply replaceable. I don't buy any of the claims of mechanical deficiencies of disc brakes, either. Warped rotors? You didn't set up your caliper correctly, or you had some loose bolts or a loose hub or something. I might buy that heat warped them, but if that's the case, consider what that would have done to an aluminum rim. They're tough to adjust or keep adjusted? Discs take a little more work to get just right, the tolerances are tighter, but after that they stay in adjustment well- about all you have to worry about is pad wear, and getting gummed with road gunk (V's, OTOH are adjusted with cheap springs and tiny screws- exposed to the weather and extremely prone to getting gummed up and rusting or corroding- you just don't notice the misadjustment because you don't need to set up a rim brake perfectly to get reasonable performance out of them). Good cables and housing on a BB7 will give you braking power on par with entry/mid level hydraulics.

That said, hydraulics on a touring bike? Also silly. Hydraulics are fantastic... for quick, sharp braking action, not dragging down thousands of feet of descent. You will boil your fluid and wear out your pads (and unless they're Shimano or Avid, good luck getting replacement pads from whatever mom and pop bike shop you happen to stumble across). And very few are compatible with road drop bars. Again, I love hydraulics, but not for touring.

Sorry if this all sounds like a jerk tone of voice, but it comes from someone that had had the exact same thoughts at one time- then got better at his installation/adjustment/maintenance/not being a cheapskate and changed his mind.

OK, I'm going to get more positive here with random thoughts:

I'm not of a one-track mind regarding derailer systems. I like IGH too and can agree that many of your average joes, from mom and dad on their cruisers to kids to tourists (basically anyone not aiming for hardcore road or mountain riding) can benefit greatly using an IGH system. Using the Rholoff as the standard is silly, you can get a 7 or 8 speed IGH bike for only a little more than a cheap geared bike and nearly eliminate drivetrain tune-ups, or the likelihood of derailer damage, forever. I would peg the unpopularity on the common consumer not being forward thinking or realistic enough to see the money they're saving on maintenance by buying an IGH bike (they can barely see the value in buying a bike from a bike shop oever Walmart). I don't care about the weight difference from a derailer system, but I do dislike the weight being entirely centered on the rear hub. I like my derailers over IGHs, but would never question someone who liked to ride IGH.

Also, I'm not an luddite when it comes to bicycle electronics. I've worked on a lot of Shimano electronics (and some Campy electronics, but they can go jump off a bridge) and love them. The time where you can get very cheap, programmable, modular electronic shifting for any bike type is coming relatively soon. Not ideal for touring right now, but fun to use.

I like bar end shifters for my touring bike for the rapid shifting you can make (all the way up or down your cassette or crankset in one quick motion)- on rolling hills, carrying s lot of weight, you shift from one far end of your drivetrain to the other very often. Trying to make that many shifts one click at a time on an index system is a chore. Plus bar end shifters are cheap and durable.

A friend of mine got some cheap Chinese carbon wheels for his Bike Friday. Things exploded going down a hill in France and almost killed him. Cheap and Carbon do not mix!

Bike Friday... 20"? (Is there such a thing?) 26"? Rim or disc braking? If rim, then yeah, I don't doubt it. If disc, then :( :(

I hear ya. I think carbon is much less likely to bend, they can take some pretty amazing abuse. With that said, you can destroy anything if you hit it hard enough. I have some personal 'data' that swayed me. I had some 'overseas' carbon rims built up for my MTB, things have been hammered over 2 season of Cat 1 / Expert MTB racing, perfectly true and 0 problems. I run super low pressure (22 psi) and was shocked out how well they have managed.

Also, I run A719's on my touring bike, put them on my cross bike for a few training rides and they got out of round pretty quick. The carbon hoops I am running now (light weight tubular rims) have not had to be trued up for over a year of racing extensively.

On a touring bike I'd only use heavy duty MTB rims disc rims, they are 200 grams lighter that A719's for example.

YMMV of course....not trying to hijack thread, just saying that my perfect Gruppo has carbon!

99% of Carbon rims are made overseas, save for Enves, Zipps and a handful of other boutique manufacturers. I'm quite certain that Light Bicycle makes all the specialized Roval rims, highly regarded for both MTB, road and cross. Most problems stemmed from A) older carbon rims not the new ones and B) heat from braking, hence why I'd only use them with discs.

We warned him. Custom carbon 20 inch wheels with carbon brakes was really bad idea. Didn't listen. Halfway through the trip going down a TDF hill.....

YMMV of course....not trying to hijack thread, just saying that my perfect Gruppo has carbon!


Probably has already been mentioned, I'd probably go tubeless first, and save some weight, or go to really light tubes, go slicks, these are more proven, lower risk ways of dropping wheel weight and rolling resistance.

I looked at the groupo idea just for fun when I stocked up on parts recently. I used white Uno crank Rohloff, White hubs and BB. Brakes were paul and whatever levers were reasonably available. I wish White or Paul made say Road levers. Takes you to a few US manufacturers. Better still would be Phil hubs, Uno cranks, and Paul brakes (and all their other stuff). But as far as I can tell the Phil/Rohloff collaboration was a one-off for a show. I forget who made the post, but it was a big name straight one.

[img]http://cyclepista.files.wordpress.co...4/phil_new.jpg[/img]

You can make a Rohloff Groupo but it has all the appeal of German style, French engineering, and Italian efficiency, or however that goes.

I also had an LX based deal, that was all PAUl: brakes; post (don't really think set-back posts belong on touring bikes, but it is a nice post). At the time Paul didn't make a rear hub, so I did White as I got a good deal with the above deal on the other bike, but I wish I had done Phil. But paul might make a rear hub. Then you do all the little pieces: moon units, cable hanger, GO Pro mount or flashlight mounts.

I also had an idea for using their brakes, but it was pretty weird, something like the bar end ones; top thumbies since bar end is out; those hood only blobs for people that don't use road levers to rest on (not Paul); and Either a 2 finger brake on the top or the Cross brake, I forget what I thought would work. Unconventional but not counter-functional. The piece de resistance would be if you could score Paul Deraileurs, but even if you did and they make a rear hub, they wouldn't match up. But that would be a full groupo, except for the front crank.

You're right. I am still missing your point.

If you're wondering why consumers don't want a heavier and more expensive system that doesn't look like a pro bike, it's because it's heavier, more expensive, and it doesn't look like their favorite pro bike.

I think the majority of people should use electric cars, because it makes the most sense for the average motorist, but at the end of the day, people keep buying Escalades and Avalanches.

Nuclear cars?

Okay, okay, jeez...

First off, I think the crankset should be 30/46, but hollowtech II. Shimano doesn't make this combination, but I think it'd be ideal for touring. the Hollowtech II spindle is lighter and stiffer than square taper, and if it's machined really well, like a Paul compnent level of quality, there should be no need to replace it in far-off lands (and, at any rate, a replacement in 34/46 is $90 shipped to you as a worst-case.)

Full titanium. Cost be damned! This is dream-land. If I make the frame and components out of titanium (where it makes sense to) then I should reduce the weight enough to go ALL-WHEEL DRIVE.

That's right. There's a fatbike that has a series of gears and spindles embedded inside the tubing of the frame that supplies equal power to the front and rear wheel. I'd do the same. It's the evolution of the off-road bike.

The frame needs to have a low enough top tube to fit a suspension seatpost with a Revelate-style seat bag, plus standover height will be an issue off-road.

You know how Moots builds about 1" of travel in a suspension doohickey right between the seat tube and the seat stays? That.

Waterproof everything, double the resiliency of the springs in the derailleurs and levers, and paint everything white. Max's Dream Bike.

OK, despite the fact that the whole concept of the ultimate build, bike, gruppo, or whatever is kind of ludicrous, and in my view we get way too wrapped up in the bike rather than the tour...

My perfect gruppo would probably be something that combines the simplicity and the functionality of my old down tube shifter, 1990, 105 gruppo with a 10 speed cassette and probably a double ring in the front. That or an equally functional STI brifter system, but with either non indexed front shifter or a trim adjustment. Since I travel light there is no need for wide rims and tires, so the dual pivot 105 road brakes work wonderfully. No need for a lot of bells and whistles.

One of the problems for me would be that the newer frames are often not made to accommodate down tube shifters so the DT version might not work easily for many frames (btw, I strongly dislike bar end shifters so they are not the answer for me).

A lot of the two ring, 10 cog MTB drive trains would suit me fine with a set of either DT shifters or brifters (assuming they worked properly with the MTB drive train) and some road race brakes.

Truth be told my 1990, 105, 7 speed, short cage, downtube shifter, road race gruppo with a triple crank converted to an ultra compact double already comes pretty close to being my ideal. If anything a few more and closer spaced cogs would be nice. I would never have guessed how much I would have enjoyed that setup when I threw it together to do the ST with U/L camping/cooking gear. The 1990 Cannondale Crit frame even comes fairly close to being my perfect choice.

You need to shop around a bit more. A year and a half ago I bought a non-disc Rohhloff for 875.86 Euros with shipping and a sprocket removal tool, at the exchange rate at that time I paid roughly $1,150. It also would have been cheaper if I bought silver instead of black, at that time black bumped the price up. I also could have gotten it cheaper if I did not get the EX Box version.

Still scratching my head on why you included the word derailleur with your Rohloff price.

I will enjoy pedaling up the hill while you are stopped in your tracks with your 30t chainring for your lowest gear. My derailleur touring bikes have a 24t chainring. Some on this forum think a 24t is too big.

Or, I will pedal past when you are on the side of the road with a bad bearing with your external bottom bracket while I have my square taper bottom bracket working just fine. I was part of a group tour with a total of 16 riders a couple years ago. Other than flats, there were two mechanical failures. One was an external bottom bracket bearing, the other was a broken spring on a front derailleur. I could temporarily fix the front derailleur with a piece of bunge cord to make it shift getting that rider back on the road, but the external bottom bracket required parts to be overnight shipped to a bike shop.

staehpj1, I built a distance bike that fits some of the criteria you mentioned. I still have to work out hanging a bag on the aero bars, but I've proved it good, if not initially a bit clumsy, for ~20 lb.

Brad

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=413760

Why do you think people keep buying Escalades and Avalanches.....are you equating IGH to Electric cars?

Of course, I understand the marketing machine in the bike industry. We are discussion the merits of IGH, I don't think consumers, much like lemmings, should be a reference point of their validity.