What cassette gearing? Ive found that though I generally use MTB gearing, I rarely hit my 22/36 low gear, and even when I do it's uncomfortable to spin it. A narrower range witb smaller steps is often preferable.

I disagree with your dislike of external BBS. The stiffness benefits of the system are drastic (before going to external on my tourer I used nice sealed bearing TA BBS), which is nice on an already flexy steel frame. Maintenance and repair are far easier (I will concede that it needs to be done more often, especially if you're riding in poor or dirty conditions). As long as you stick to shimano or SRAM, fresh bearings are as easy to get as anything (some brands can be tougher to find laying around at just any shop).

When i set up my VO Campeur. I chose SUN XCD front and rear, VO crankset with good gearing range, 11-32 in the back. 30 speed friction bar ends. Works wonderfully for me. I also got a set of VO RAID wheels. They are pretty easy to service also.

In the 70s, most bikes had shifters that were strapped onto the frame, not brazed on. Perhaps you could mix the strap part with the modern day downtube levers if you want indexed. Or just use 70s vintage shift levers if you want friction. The downtubes back then were usually smaller diameter than what is generally offered today for a touring bike, but still you might be able to find one that would fit onto the downtube with a longer bolt?

Some older bike shops that have been around for decades have a box or bucket with vintage stuff that you can offer a buck or two to buy something out of it. I have bought some vintage stuff from on line auction sites that is currently in use on my touring bikes.

What is your take on the VO stuff? Quality, craftsmanship, etc?

N

I'm pleased with it. It's good quality and I can honestly say from buyer and seller viewpoint that i wouldn't sell or promote something i didn't feel confident in. I can say that their brake pads sucked. I've been using their cranksets, wheels, even the Campeur. I am pleased. Not the lightest of the lightest items but I wasn't too worried about weight.

My VO Camargue had a modified Sugino wide-low crank from Rivendell (40/26t) with 12-36 9 speed cassette out back. Had Dia-Compe ENE bar end friction shifters, with Shimano M772 rear derailleur. It was awesome on a recent 100 mile bike camping trip on gravel, dirt, pavement. Wish it had more top end speed though, but I love friction shifting, especially for touring.

Currently, undergoing a switch to dirt drop rigid shred sled. Drivetrain is switching to 1x10 (36t wolftooth chainring up front, with 11-36 cassette out back). Also adding 10 speed Microshift bar end shifters. Helps me get similar gearing to what I was running up front, but able to go off-road more.

Thanks for that. Have had my eye on the Campeur frame, seems to tick a lot of boxes for me.

N

Not to mention, hydraulic systems don't like it when you put the bike upside down to do a roadside repair. God forbid that you accidentally bump the brake lever while you are repairing a flat and have to readjust the piston on the side of the road with minimal tools. You don't have the ability to bleed and refill the cylinders/hose on the side of the road if need be. If you lose your brakes, you're done, especially on a long mountainous decent. With mechanical discs, I could make an emergency repair with a guitar string and a pair of vice-grips, if it came down to it.

Hydraulics are great on a race course, the self-adjusting ability of the pads means that you have consistent stopping for the entire life of the pad. That's a big deal. That benefit quickly becomes a frustration on a long tour when you get to ride for eight hours a day thinking about how you can't wait to get to a bike shop in order to stop the squeal (only to have the same problem return a day after you left the last bike shop).

One more thing to go out of true. A wheel can be trued on the road with a tool the size of a quarter. Ever true a disc rotor? Also, how many wheels have you needed to replace due to wearing out the rim from braking? Don't get me wrong, I like disc brakes and the reduced rim wear... but you get a lot of life out of a rim with traditional brakes.

The thing is that if (and that is a big if) I were to want to build up a modern bike for my touring style it would likely be carbon fiber and most do not easily take DT shifters. Anyway I am pretty satisfied with either a modern road race bike with brifters or an old road race bike with DT shifter bosses on the frame. If I were going to tour with much over 20 pounds or so I might go back to a "real" touring bike, but these days I generally stay well under 20 pounds even counting food and water.

Yeah, I have done the eBay thing for vintage parts sometimes.

BTW, I liked the old Cannondale race bike enough that when I left it with my daughter and son in law so I could ride with them when I visit, I built up another almost like it. Funny thing is I may just ride my more modern race type bike instead next tour, low-ish spoke count wheels and all.

I haven't used discs on a touring bike, so what the hell do I know, but warped rotors on my MTB bumping, crashing and plowing rough conditions is pretty rare as is. Crescent wrench on a rotor + 2 minutes is all I've ever needed. Not easy if your are in the middle of the Sahara, but definitely not something difficult to deal with on the road in most places. You could probably do it with your hand if hard pressed.

Fair point about the pistons, I use a flat head screwdriver and a few minutes of being very patient. Some brakes are easier than others, but have never had much trouble (besides frustration) dealing with it with minimal tools.

There is a lot to be said for a 'racy' bike while touring and have been thinking much the same. The stuff nowadays, even with low spoke counts, is very durable and obviously a pleasure to ride. Every year I've cut back my kit to the point where a lighter bike is the next step. The great thing is all the gearing opportunities it opens up, no need for a triple in a lot of cases.

I've thought about a hybrid build, 'lightweight' steel frame, alum racks, MTB carbon wheelset, 10 sp brifters...a nice combo of touring ruggedness and road bike weight.

one thing (another argument that can go on till June and the riding season resumes ) wheel size ..

The Rohloff hub has minimum drive ratio requirements , But put it into a 20" wheel and that is super Low ..


making a double chainring kit (chain tensioner for the difference), to increase the Range Upward..

or a Schlumpf Speed Drive crank , with say a 15tcog and the 34t chainring , which functions like a 54t in the 1.65X overdrive range ..
and then you have something to use in a chaincase or those Belt Drive systems..

Now back to the pure dreailleur drive train fan club..

Honestly, all parts are on the table for a rider that knows how to do the repairs when necessary. Heat from a long descent can warp a rotor... but a higher end rotor is less likely to warp (as is a bigger rotor), so having the correct equipment for the job would likely prevent this. Of course, bike manufacturers seldom put the right parts on the bike out of the box.

Even if potential warping is a concern, I think the positive points on disc-brakes outweigh the negative. First and foremost, the ability to use road-cable-pull calipers with integrated shifters. Then there is the additional clearance for fenders and racks. They also have good stopping power. The worry that a rim will eventually wear out on a traditional brake is waaaaaaaaay down my list of disc brake benefits. I was just curious if the poster that I was responding to has ever trued a disc rotor or was even aware that this is something that needs to be done on occasion. I'm not opposed to disc brakes in any way, not even hydraulic, but they do add additional complexity and I don't think that average touring cyclist knows how to fix/adjust problems. If everyone touring on a bicycle had the same level of knowledge as the average poster on this forum, it would be a different scenario entirely.

I guess I identified another point of disagreement within this thread... *my* ultimate touring group that I would personally be riding isn't the same as the ultimate touring group that I'd sell to someone riding across the country without a mechanic.

Agreed. I love my Paul touring Cantis, but also was pretty happy with my AVID BS7. Going down a long descent can be a challenge, period. You have to use correct braking technique whether it's rim brake or disc. Rim brakes can also overheat the rim and you can blow out the tube.

Disc brakes also allow you to use different wheel size for conversions, which can be nice. Rotors are also cheaper than replacing a wheel.

New disc brakes like the TRP Spyres even out pad wear by having dual calipers, and usually are adjustable from both sides. The Avids don't require any tools to adjust pads. Pretty easy stuff once you get used to it.

Fair points on all counts.

Another positive of using discs is the cross compatibility with MTB equipment. I've gone to discs on my Cross bike for this. In some cases MTB and Touring gear is close enough to warrant the same strategy if you have multiple bikes. A nice heavy duty disc MTB wheelset with a 11-34 cassette can do double duty.

I don't think hydro for Touring makes sense.

Yeah. Going forward, all of my purchased new bikes will be 700c or 650b, 135mm OLD, disc compatible.

I don't think tubeless saves much weight when you factor in the sealant, tape, etc.

Amen Brother, all my bikes are 135mm and have no reason to go back. Nice to have multiple options for convertible hubs as well, 142, thru-axle, etc.

My apologies, I would like a Sun Tour Gruppo please.

"I didn't sell out son, I bought in."

My problem is that I fail to see the better "modulation" of any hydraulics. The one's I've tried don't have any modulation at all but are "digital", i.e. on or off. That is not "modulation" in my book.

As to power, I can stand any bike I own on it's nose with the any brake system I use or have ever used, with the expection of old Mafic knockoffs from the 80s. "More power" doesn't gain me anything.

Yes, people buy what's available. But companies also offer what sells. IGH just doesn't sell. Never really has. IGH has been available for many decades but people just don't want them. Even in Europe. I had the opportunity to tour in Belgium and the Netherlands this summer. You see lots of single speeds...and some of them might be IGH...but on the weekend they get out the derailer equipped bikes to go fast or go long distances.

Sorry but the "Golden Age of IGH" isn't just around the corner. Some people want them but most people are sticking with derailers. As stated above, Trek tried it. They didn't sell. Trek stopped offering them.

Do you know how most bicycle co-ops work? Mine is pretty representitive. We take donations from the public, refurbish some, scrap others and give some away. We see 1500 bikes per year of every possible flavor come through our doors. IGH...even 3 speeds...are extremely rare. I've been working there nearly every Saturday for the last 4 years and have seen every conceivable bicycle out there including an Ordinary but I can't recall seeing any IGH other than 3 speeds...and few of thoses.

Can one make an appeal to authority when one uses their own knowledge? If we can't use our own observations, experience and knowledge what can we use?

You really need to find out what a bicycle "co-op" is. My co-op not only "launders" used bikes but we offer a space where people can do their own works with our tools. We have 6 stands and each one is full every Saturday with a line waiting for the stand out the door. We put a limit of 90 minutes on the stands because they are so popular and we still fill them for a typical 6 hour shift. We have a lot of people and a lot of bikes coming through the shop. Not many IGH, however.

Maybe they go to another co-op.

Your co-op sounds very like the one I work at. Mine's in the UK, however. 3-speed IGHs feature quite frequently on the bikes we are given, to the point that our regular mechanics have to be able to strip them down and reassemble them.

I use a Rohloff myself. I see a fair number of Alfines on commuters. Obviously Rohloffs aren't common because they're so expensive, and Alfines are still vastly outnumbered by derailleurs, but their popularity seems to be growing. And I saw a singlespeed with a Sturmey Archer fitted in a very high-end "roadie" bike shop in London recently. IGHs are a minority interest, but as far as the UK market is concerned they aren't that unusual a sight.

You Obviously havent used Magura's HydroStop Rim Brakes..