Alright.

True. On my road bike, the Brooks Swift is almost exactly horizontal, but because I ride with a significant saddle-bar drop, it is nose-up relative to the line from saddle to bars. The B17 on my flat-barred tourer, where the drop from saddle to bars is less marked, is a few degrees nose-up.

It is certanly finicky to get precisely right, with trial and error leading to a number of minute adjustments before it's perfect. And once it's right, I don't touch it. Were I to lend one of those bikes to anyone I'd swap out saddle and seatpost rather than have them tinker with the setup.

If I have one criticism of Brooks, it is that the shortness of the rails severely limits the scope for fore-and-aft adjustment. Very difficult to compensate for a poor riding postion by moving the saddle, so the frame had better fit you pretty well.

funny, but when I first heard that term on tv, it was usually said when guys were pushing hard while seated on an uphill section. I always thought it meant the rear of the seat and the rivets there, because when I push hard going uphill seated, I push back into the rear of the saddle and so my bum is going more onto the rear rivets....

thats how I understood it.

*I see now that I was wrong....learn something every day.

re: nose up thing--my experience is exactly as you say, my drop bar bike has about an inch or so of drop between seat and bars, and having the seat level is clearly more comfortable than tilted up for this bike, and makes being in the drops work as well.
If you look at Machkas bike, she has a fair amount of rise of her bars, so this is logically going to make a difference, especially given how much her bars are above her seat compared to my bike. Raising the nose a bit can work, but every individual and bike setup means you really do have to listen to your body and make adjustments while riding to see what works best for your specific setup--which leads to--

re: your second comment. I tend to agree with you. Is this more than non leather seats, I'm not sure, but I certainly agree that when you have your seat setup really well, I am sure any rider who rides a fair amount doesn't like moving things around.

With my first B17 I had an issue once where I messed up the fore/aft position and the bottom part of the side emblem on skirt irritated my inner thigh. Who knows, it could have been an angle thing too, maybe got it wrong a bit.

It does makes sense to me that given the dimples that occur in the leather by our sitbones, slight changes probably are felt more compared to a plastic seat, so again, you do have to listen to what your nether regions are telling you.

Agree, shorter rails can create a problem by not allowing you to place your saddle back adequately, though you can compensate easily enough by using a seat post designed with a lot of set back, such as this model with 25mm of set back:


Aerus-AL-Elite-2014-Alloy-Seatpost-x-350mm-25mm-Offset

B17s on my touring bike, commuter and fat bike. They work for me right out of the box. For wet weather I use a Randi Jo Fabrications cover.

I rode Brooks saddles from 1975 through 1995 exclusively. From my 8 mile daily commute to several 6000 mile cross-country adventures my Brooks was standard equipment and there was nothing better. Then modern materials came along an my Brooks went the way of whale-oil lamps and fins on Cadillacs. Now it is 2015 and I wouldn't sit on a Brooks saddle if they gave me free ones and $5000 a year to use them. I turned my last Brooks in to a local bike shop back in the 90s that had a wall covered in old Brooks saddles previously owned by converted cyclists. Hundreds of them - so I know I am not alone. I think of Brooks riders and a scene from 2001 - A Space Odyssey comes to mind. These are the apes that no longer ride Brooks:


REFERENCE: https://www.music-graffiti.com/images...-discovery.jpg

I am very pleased and quite amazed that Brooks has thrived solely through marketing genius however. They most certainly deserve an award for creating such a cult following for the Edsel of bicycle saddles. Truly amazing considering the weight, expense, and necessary maintenance of the things. I guess they followed the Gucci purse model. From that standpoint I highly admire Brooks' business model. But give me a nice bucket seat over a wooden church pew any day.

I'm a real believer of use whatever works best for you, and these things are just bike seats. When I thought of trying one, I knew the weight was always going to be more than other seats, the cost was about $100 and compared to all kinds of good bike seats out there this wasnt that much more, seems lots of them are easily 60-70 and up, so I figured the diff wasnt that much and if I didnt like it, I'd sell it. Maintenance, I really only put a smidgen of the stuff that came with it about once a year, so the main issue is making sure it doesnt get left out in the rain, and use a waterproof cover on it when riding in the rain--this isnt a real prob for me, but agree that not having to do this and or worry about rain is nice with non leather seats.

For me its just nice that I can ride all day and not be sore, and can get on the bike the next day for another 5 hours riding and not be sore--Im sure there a other seats that would work for me also, its just that I have these things and they work, I certainly wouldnt ride on them if they didnt. When my first turned out to work so well, I was very wary of spending money on another seat that maybe wouldnt work out so well and I wouldnt be able to return, losing the money spent, so thats why I got another Brooks just because I knew it worked for me. It would be great to be able to try all kinds of diff seats, but its rare to see demos in the stores here, and so there is a real risk you could spend X dollars and then be kind of so-so about the seat.

+1

After trying several other saddles with mixed but generally poor results, I've ridden a very comfortable 75,000 km on Brooks saddles.

And yes, weight ... don't really care; cost ... about the same as other saddles; maintenance ... very little. Durability ... excellent!

This was not a plus for me. A slab of leather that never wears out. I couldn't wait for my last one to wear out.

I have no problem with other people riding Brooks. Just tossing in my 2 cents.

Care to share what you are riding on? I'm thinking I may be in the market for a new saddle and want something I don't have to worry about keeping dry.

Before I answer outright.

I spent some time helping a local bike shop get their computers in order. They were short handed so often enough I got sucked down onto the sale floor to help out. Eventually they decided to send me out to Cali for schooling at Specialized "University" to drink the S-Works Kool-aid. Let me be clear though, I am not a Specialized fan for the most part. They make good stuff but as a company I am not a big fan. Anyhoo, I was impressed with the lengths they go to R&D their saddles, and since I was selling the stuff, decided to try one. By this time I had been away from Brooks for 10 years and through experimentation knew I liked a flat-top saddle best.

I ordered the best Avatar Comp Gel saddle in the line. Retail was around $275. They no longer make my specific saddle but the one they make now is $100. Looks OK to me. This is billed as an "All Day" race saddle same as mine.

FIRST...go to a Specialized dealer and sit on their little arse measuring machine. Most of their saddles come in three widths. Order the Avatar Comp Gel in your width. Most bike shops will give you a little trial period to exchange the saddle if you don't like it. This won't take long because the saddle should feel like Angel's breath under you butt from day one. Once you find the Specialized saddle that works for you just about any quality saddle with that shape and width will work. Try to pick ones over $100 full retail and maybe catch a sale. My other bike has a WTB Silverado saddle with the same shape. Works fine. I never think about my arse on either saddle. Actually, I never think about the saddle at all. There is nothing to think about. Almost...

I had the habit of lifting my loaded touring bike by the handlebars and the back side of my Brooks. I used the Brooks as a handle as I used to carry a frame pump under the top tube which eliminated the top tube for lifting the bike. You know, just picking the bike up to move it sideways one foot to squeeze between the ice machine and the propane tanks at the grocery etc. Brooks saddles make fine handles for lifting - modern saddles not so much. I have never broken a modern saddle this way but common sense tells me to NOT use the light saddles as handles. This is really the only drawback.

A final note: When I purchased the Avatar saddle I assumed that I would be replacing it fairly often as compared to a Brooks. Guess what? Five years later the cover is a little dirty but no wear whatsoever and the gel/padding (very lightly padded so don't think marshmallows here) is still firm like the day I bought it. Even my WTB daily commuter is perfect with a zillion city miles on it. Five years for any soft bike component is GREAT, any more is gravy to me.

Hope this helps you touch the monolith!

Cheers!

I've tried three or four different types of specialized saddles. They were all the right size. The Toupe cut me to ribbons, the only saddle I have ever owned that gave me saddle sores. The others were merely excruciating.

i'm sure they're great saddles, backed by expensive R&D, but they are horrible as far as I'm concerned. Fizik saddles, on the other hand, generally work well for me - but not as well as my Brooks. It's slightly ridiculous to suggest that more modern = better as far as saddles are concerned, because what matters is not the technology, it is the comfort of the rider.

I think that, with some saddle models at least, technology has been well applied specifically and successfully to achieve greater comfort.

I'd say Gucci (est. 1920) followed the Brooks (est. 1882) model

Yes, of course. I'm not a Luddite. My point is that what is important in choosing a saddle is what works for the individual. Often, that will be a modern, CAD-designed product. Sometimes, it will be a traditional Brooks. My idiosyncratic arse happens to like the latter. That doesn't mean that Brooks saddles are the answer for everyone, it just means they are the answer for me. Getting evangelical about such a subjective matter makes no sense.

This has been my experience also. Brooks recently reintroduced the Conquest after a long hiatuses.

Matt

Actually, back in the day when leather was the standard for bicycle saddles, motorcycles, and horses, Brooks did not need the Gucci business plan. They just needed to make a great product at a competitive price. When modern materials came around, Brooks looked like a Dinosaur searching for a place to lay down and die. THEN they adopted the Gucci business plan. CREATE a false market for something mediocre and reinforce it by creating some aura of greatness and desirability. Bently, Rolls Royce, and many other car manufacturers have been doing this for decades as well. Does anybody really NEED a RR? Is it that much better than a Toyota Camry for moving a few rich people around? Is a hand-made car any better than one welded by machines? Some think so. Same with Brooks. If Brooks vanished tomorrow, everyone here would likely find something comfortable to sit on.

I admit that when I got my touring bike, I put a Brooks on it because of the buzz. But what sold it to me was the amazing comfort upon learning the "nose up" trick. I've never ridden a more comfortable saddle - and I've been riding a long, long time.

Joey, " If Brooks vanished tomorrow, everyone here would likely find something comfortable to sit on."

Maybe, probably, but going to the Gucci and RR thing, if my b17 cost not that much more than a ton of bike seats on the market, and I'm comfortable on them, then the Gucci thing doesn't really hold-although I figure there's some truth in that because of the "look" that they have, I suspect lots of people buy them just for that.
I think its fair to say that for everyone, when you find a whatever seat that works well for you personally, a lot of people will stick to that model, whatever its made of. And folks spend tons of money searching for a seat that works best, mine just happen now to be a b17.

I think nowadays most who purchase Brooks saddles are doing so for style. Thankfully so, because it keeps Brooks in business for those of you who get actual comfort and benefit from their saddles. As I said, I admire how they have not only survived but thrived with a product that is largely outdated.

On the flip-side...I still use a flip-phone. I have little use for the features offered and costs of a "smart" phone. Mine costs $5 a month and does way more than what I actually need it to do. It is a better shape for me to carry and the glass will likely never break. If I break it, they hand me a new one without purchasing insurance. So I am un-evolved when it comes to phones and have no problem with seeming less than modern. I know several people who own $400 phones and spend $100 a month but don't do anything more than I do with mine, ever. Fashion has it's price.

If it works, and you can afford Brooks, that is an awesome thing. I rode Brooks for decades and truly understand the love for them. I just found something I love even more.

Cheers

About bike seats in general, I figure that along with bike fit and shoes that are comfortable, having a seat that allows you to ride day after day without physical issues is super important.
I still come back to the new cost of one of my b17's five years ago, $100 basically, and here in Montreal bike stores, there are lots and lots of good bike seats that cost that, lots and really lots that cost $50, so I figure what the heck, maybe 50 bucks more than a so so quality seat that most likely be so so comfortable and maybe so so long lasting. I dont ride a huge amount but usually about 5000km per season, so 50 bucks or so isn't much, heck just by commuting by bike and not using my car, that 50 or whatever is saved easily.

I just bring the cost thing up simply because the diff to me isn't that much, and I'm careful with my money and don't buy stuff frivolously.

In the end tho, like you say, whatever seat works for you....I'm sure I'll try other ones too, and hopefully find others that work well.

My Specialized Avatar Pro five years ago was well over $200 US. I got a pro deal on it through the shop I was working for but still, that is not a price factor to consider vs. Brooks at all. And I only tried it because I was trying to sell them. In the end (pun intended) it was love at first sit.

The $16K Bianchi by Gucci does not have a Brooks saddle!

That would be a sad day ... and if they did happen to go under and stopped producing saddles, I'd be out buying up about a dozen of them so that I wouldn't have to go through the agony of finding something comfortable to sit on. I've already been through that process about a decade ago, and it was such a relief to find the Brooks ... to finally find a saddle that was comfortable.

And fortunately, they are known for durability. What I have in the way of Brooks saddles now may last the rest of my life.