gregf83 

The evidence you've provided to back up that claim is very thin. The studies you quoted by Ornish showed a relatively small improvement in heart disease when an experimental group went on a low-fat diet, dropped 10kg and doubled their weekly exercise to 5 hrs/wk.

You appear far more critical of the claims and evidence others provide.

GeorgeBMac

Thanks,
I was aware of that, but had not seen that article.

Here is the response by Ornish referenced in it.
CardioBuzz: 'Lifestyle Medicine' | Medpage Today

I think this passage towards the end summarizes it all pretty well:
"More than 75% of the $2.8 trillion in annual U.S. healthcare costs (mostly sick-care costs) are from chronic diseases, which can often be prevented and even reversed by eating a plant-based diet, at a fraction of the costs -- and the only side-effects are good ones."

The Ornish program consistently shows a 50-90% reduction of those diseases in those who follow his program. That equates to over $1 trillion a year in health care savings...

The results are there. The proof is there. These results either have to be disproven (which nobody has been able to do) or it is inevitable that they be adopted. We simply cannot afford nearly $3trillion a year in treating these chronic diseases running epidemic in the developed nations.

Actually, the only refutation I have heard of these results come from cardiologists who claim that patients cannot and will not adhere to the necessary changes (not that the changes are not effective). Yet Ornish and Esselstyn have both shown upwards of 80% compliance with their programs. There are two reasons for that:
1) They supply the support structure that patients need to learn and incorporate the changes into their lives
2) The patients feel so much better that they refuse to go back to their old lifestyles. They're tired of being sick all the time.

In addition, tellingly, Ornish says this:
"One of the most interesting findings in all of our studies was this: the more people changed their diet and lifestyle, the more they improved in a variety of metrics. At any age. For example, we found a statistically significant dose-response relationship between the degree of lifestyle changes and the degree of improvement in coronary atherosclerosis, in changes in prostate cancer, and in telomere length."

And that may be the key to failure of other studies to show the effectiveness of lifestyle changes: they make minimal changes (say cutting fat from 35% to 31%) and then report no improvement. The bigger the changes, the bigger the improvement.

wolfchild

Here is my criticism of Ornish diet:

High-carb, low-fat, low-protein diets have proven to be ineffective for long term, permanent, healthy weight loss. Many people experience weight gain after following a calorie restricted vegan diets. This diet can lead to serious health problems and nutritional deficiencies. Chronic imbalance between protein and carb ingestion and no fat ingestion can result in protein deficiencies and overspiking of insulin. This can further lead to insulin resistance/insensitivity, hypoglycemia and diabetes. This diet is not good for athletes and people who are very active physically because of it's low protein intake may not supply enough amino acids to hard working muscles...People who follow Ornish suffer from "fat phobia" and fail to realize how important fats and oils are to hormonal, muscular and neural system...Just look around and see what low-fat diets have accomplished in the last 30 years, more obesity, more diabetes, more people on prescription meds then ever before.

Carbonfiberboy 

Thank you. This is also my experience. About 20 years ago a friend convinced me that the Ornish diet was the way to go for health and long life. Her mother had died rather horribly after a long battle with heart disease. I didn't need much convincing. Those who follow me here know I'll try anything to get better results.

Anyway, I bought the Ornish book. I think it was Eat More, Weigh Less. I followed the diet. After a few months, my blood sugar swings became intolerable. I had to eat Ornishly about every 2 hours or I'd break out in a sweat, start hyperventilating, and become unable to make decisions. I went to my doctor who sent me to a lab for a glucose tolerance test, which didn't go well. The diabetes nurse explained to me that I was damaging my pancreas with this diet. She said, "Eat fat! Put a log on the fire. What you are eating is kindling."

I still have reactive hypoglycemia from that diet and will have to be very careful of what I eat for the rest of my life. It's a permanent injury. 40 years of unnecessary PITA. Now if I get hungry between meals, I have a jigger of olive oil. Fixes me right up.

We need all three major lipid groups to be healthy: Omega 3, Omega 6, and saturated fat. We need them in the right ratio in our diet and enough of them, more than most folks realize. If you're an athlete, and if you are posting here that's prima facie evidence that you are, you need more than the RDA of protein. Especially if you are trying to lose weight, you need about twice the RDA of protein.

I would note that the Ornish diet, plus exercise, plus group therapy, plus meditation did reverse plaque deposits in those, and only in those, who were closely supervised by Dr. Ornish. It has not been shown to be of particular benefit in any other trial. As noted in the nytimes blog link above, there is no way to know if diet was responsible for Dr. Ornish's results. For instance, it turns out that the one thing most likely to prevent Alzheimer's is social interaction, which changes one's brain proteins.

Now I eat a modified Med diet. Modified because we can't afford to eat that quantity of fish and because our diet is largely plant-based. We do get plenty of fat of all types though (good cheese is wonderful), and supplement with whey protein to replace the fish protein. We try to make up for the Omega-3 deficiency with capsules, canola oil, greens, and walnuts.

Be careful out there.

GeorgeBMac

Your experience is unusual as Whole Food Plant Based diets have been proven to prevent and even reverse Type II Diabetes. Because, due to the lack of excess fat which creates insulin resistance, the body processes sugars far more efficiently.

Ornish also suggests that a person can eat on a Spectrum -- and come as close as they want (or need) to what he terms his "reversal diet". Perhaps you were not on his full reversal (WFPB) diet? You may have been taking in too much fat and/or too many refined carbs.

For myself, my sugar levels (both fasting and non-fasting) as well as my A1C are better now under a WFPB diet than they were previously. In fact, they are not only lower but more stable. That is, before starting the WFPB diet, I had to be careful taking in carbs or I suffered from severe hypoglycemia -- but I have not experienced that even once in the two years I have been on a WFPB diet. Again, high fat diets create insulin resistance which then creates the insulin swings that you complain of...

But, I do find that I need to eat every 3-4 hours. But that's OK. Better to eat smaller more frequent meals than to overload with a few.

As for "needing" all three types of fat, the jury is still out on that -- at least as far as the massive quantities proposed by those who say those things. Perfectly adequate levels can easily be had from whole plant foods.

p.s. As Michael Greger says: 'It's not plants vs meat. It's whole plant foods vs all the rest'. Too many people confuse a WFPB based diet with a 'high carb' or a 'low fat' diet. While a WFPB may be high in carbs, it is not a 'high carb' or even a 'low fat' diet. Instead, carbs, fats and protein come naturally from whole plant sources.

GeorgeBMac

The evidence shows that every single statement of your post is factually incorrect.... Not even Dr. Atkins would agree with it. I suspect you are getting your talking points from the quacks of the Paleo/Grain Brain crowd.

Ball Bearing

Indeed, this is so true. On various forums I have seen precisely the same behavior when meat eating proponents try and educate the wayward vegans about their unhealthful ways.

The really odd thing is that I have NEVER seen a vegan jump into a meat lovers thread and preach.

Of course, what would I know? I have not eaten meat in 43 years and my health is excellent.

Carbonfiberboy 

I was on an ultra-low fat < 10% diet. That was the problem. It was right out of Ornish's book, his recipes. That was 20 years ago and perhaps he's seen the error of his ways and changed his hardline approach. In any case, no researcher other than Dr. Ornish has observed this reversal, no matter what diet was used.

No, high fat diets do not create insulin resistance. That is the effect of low fat/low protein diets. Adding a sufficient quantity of either of those two macronutrients prevents RH.

Claims of improved health remarkably similar to yours are also made by the low-carbers and paleos on this forum. Perhaps it's not so much any particular diet as it is being conscious of what you eat and avoiding junk food. I'll repeat that researcher's quote which I posted in 95:It's not that I'm opposed to the idea of a vegan diet. I'm saying that it's very difficult maintain that diet for a long time. I know many people who've tried it and quit. It's especially difficult for athletes as the protein requirements require either other than "whole plant foods" or quantities of foods which don't normally make up that large a portion of a person's diet. It's not like just giving up processed foods and animal products. It's a whole 'nother eating pratice. It takes a lot of research and tremendous discipline. And . . . the results are uncertain. We are born eating animal products. We evolved eating animal products. It's tough to say that didn't work our for us as a species.

DosWheelsBtr

By the tenants of "bro science" you should of been long dead.

Seattle Forrest

We've agreed that results matter. You're babbling about how you feel a vegan diet must be inferior based on whatever. You're very adamant in your dogma but you're short on results.

All things considered that's a pretty hypocritical comment, wouldn't you agree?

wolfchild

No it doesn't. Of all 3 macronutrients fat has the smallest effect on blood sugar and insulin. Adding a little fat to carbs reduces their glycemic load and glycemic index, which prevents a very rapid spike in blood sugar and a bonk afterwards...Also, being adapted to using fats as energy will eliminate mood swings and bonking.


It is a scientific fact that human body needs sufficient amounts of fats to function at optimal levels. Your body can't absorb some of the nutrients from plant foods unless you add sufficient amount of fat...For example: It has been proven that adding fat to foods rich in beta-carotene and other carotenoids helps your body to absorb a lot more of those important nutrients then without fat. All those modern low-fat and fat-free diets are a modern invention. In the old days fats and oils were the most highly prized and valuable food items and no person in their right mind would willingly reject fat for health reasons. People knew from experience that fats provide the longest lasting source of energy...

The only way to get enough fats on a plant based diet is if you include sufficient amounts of healthy fats such as olive oil, avocados and various types of nuts in your diet.

mgwilder

Dr. Esselstyn's Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease Program | Make yourself heart attack proof

Reverse Disease | Prevent Heart Disease and Cancer | Lower Cholesterol | Natural Cures | Dr Fuhrman.com

wolfchild

The biggest difference between Mediterranean Diet and Ornish diet is that, Mediterranean Diet has been is existence for a few thousand years and has been proven to sustain entire civilizations and different cultures of people and produce healthy strong populations of people. Nobody can deny that because the evidence is out there...Ornish diets, fat-free diets and low-fat diets are just a modern day inventions, they are all fad-diets and they're unhealthy, unbalanced and unsustainable in the long run.

Carbonfiberboy 

I'm aware of these books, but have not seen the studies showing plaque reversal on which they claim to be based. They must be online somewhere though, right? If you would provide the links to these studies, that would be great.

In general, I am very skeptical of any theory, the online promulgation of which brings income to the theorist. There is simply no end to them, especially in the realm of nutrition. Dr. Atkins for instance? I always want to see some peer-reviewed evidence.

I suppose I should mention as others have that I've been a non-meat eater since 1969. I've had chicken or red meat maybe half a dozen times since then. I eat fish and dairy products. I would eat more fish and fewer dairy products if I could afford it. Most people don't call fish "meat," but whatever.

GeorgeBMac

"It was right out of Ornish's book, his recipes. That was 20 years ago and perhaps he's seen the error of his ways and changed his hardline approach."
No, quite the opposite. His program has recently become the only lifestyle modification program paid for by major insurance carriers including Highmark, Medicare and Kaiser... They looked at his evidence and looked at his results and realized that his program could save them money by reversing and preventing the chronic diseases becoming epidemic in this country -- without relying on expensive pills and medical procedures...

"high fat diets do not create insulin resistance"
You need to update your information on that. Your statement is incorrect. It harkens back to out-dated assumptions (not even theories) that DM-Type II was only about some mysterious accumulation of sugar in the blood and the way to prevent it was to simply eliminate sugars from the food. The questions that have been answered since are: WHY is the sugar elevated? The answer is: Because it is due to insulin resistance where the body is unable to process dietary sugars rather than too much sugar intake.

The confusing part of that (and the basis for the Atkins diet) is: once a person has developed insulin resistance, it is necessary to limit sugar intake in order to bring down their blood sugar levels. And, Dr Atkins was clear about that: his diet was for people who were already sick. But, without the core problem of insulin resistance, the issue does not arise...

And again, the insulin resistance derives not from sugar in our blood but from fat in our cells that in turn derives from both the fat we wear as well as the fat we eat. Michael Greger explains it as follows:

"So what's jamming up the door locks on your muscle cells, preventing insulin from letting glucose enter? Fat -- more specifically, intramyocellular lipid, the fat inside your muscle cells.

Fat in your bloodstream can build up inside your muscle cells, where it can create toxic breakdown products and free radicals that block the insulin signaling process. No matter how much insulin you produce, your fat compromised muscle cells can't effectively use it. .... Researchers are now able to track the fat going from the blood into the muscles and watch insulin resistance rise. One hit of fat, and within 160 minutes, the absorption of glucose into your cells becomes compromised"

And, yes, his statements are backed up with solid research and documented with the appropriate references.

For myself, I like the analogy of trying to pump gas into a car with a collapsed gas tank -- and then blaming the overflowing gasoline on the gasoline.

"It's not that I'm opposed to the idea of a vegan diet. I'm saying that it's very difficult maintain that diet for a long time"
That is the recourse of those who do not have a logical reason to oppose a healthy diet -- so instead fall back on the standard excuse that people won't do it.

As Greger points out: Physicians used to be afraid to tell people to stop smoking afraid of depriving them of their cigarettes. Is that the job of our "health care" system? To support people in continuing their unhealthy patterns?

But sadly, too often they are correct that people will not be compliant with a healthy diet. But there are reasons for that: typically the person is given a 5 minute lecture (at best!) and sent back out onto the street surrounded by sellers of junk food and expected to make major life style changes. They are correct in their predictions: the person usually fails. However, Ornish, Esselstyn and McDougal have all demonstrated high success rates (in the 80% range) of compliance when people are supported in making those changes with education and on-going support.

But, the reason for his excuse becomes clear when he says:
"We are born eating animal products. We evolved eating animal products"
... Sorry, just another paleo freak doing the best he can to support his ideology with excuses and bad information....

GeorgeBMac

...Just more incorrect, misleading Atkins/Paleo propaganda...

GeorgeBMac

The evidence is presented in the books. Read them. For your own benefit, read them. You would likely enjoy Michael Greger's new book "How not to die". It includes well over 100 pages of references to the studies you prefer.

GeorgeBMac

.... Wrong again....

All large, successful societies have been based on some variation of a Whole Food, Plant Based diet -- including the Mediterranean Diet which is first and foremost a Whole Food, Plant Based diet with some added fats.

mgwilder

https://www.nutritionalresearch.org/research




Articles & Studies | Dr. Esselstyn's Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease Program




I'm always interested in research, but a) I take them with a grain of salt and b) we are all individuals and what works for one group may not work for another. All I know is that it's working for me. As someone who is a quintuple bypass candidate with 2 arteries completely blocked, a WFPB diet (Dr. Fuhrman) with Ornish's protocol for stress reduction (Yes, I am a graduate of Spectrum) I am making strides in reducing my plaque burden.


I don't recommend this to people because what works for me might not necessarily work for you. I do suggest people become more mindful about what they consume and the effect it has on their well being. I'm glad that you have found what works for you. A healthy person is a happy person. I know that my body cannot process the cholesterol that it produces, let alone from dietary sources, that is why I am still on statins in spite of the dietary restrictions I am on. My most recent labs show that my lipid panel is at birth level and the rest of my numbers are spot on, so I must be doing something correct.

Carbonfiberboy 

Ah, so the studies aren't published then. I've never been able to find them either.

Peer reviewed randomized control trials are the standard among real researchers. BTW, if you haven't personally read the studies referenced, you should ignore the claims made for them. I've read peer-reviewed studies which were done and references to them published in some of these fad diet books. For the most part, the studies refuted rather than supported the claims made in the text. You see, they assume that no one is going to read the studies . . .

Resting HR was 44 this morning, standing HR 55. I'll make organic sourdough pancakes for breakfast with one egg in the batter. Looks like the wife and I will have the opportunity to do a hard 40 mile group rain ride on our tandem tomorrow, temps in the lower 40s. Ride plan will be to cruise in zone 1-2 and then hit zone 5 on the steep hills. I'm squatting more than I did in my 20s so it's easy to get my HR up. It's finally snowing in the mountains, so I should be able to ski Alpine next week. Sucks to be 70 and this unhealthy!

Hermes1

The truth is, one can get as much if not more protein from other sources besides meat. B-12 is not a problem either as there are plenty of very good B-12 supplements. I am sure this guy Brendan Brazier, vegan triathlete | Great Vegan Athletes is not suffering from lack of protein.

wolfchild

If you relying on supplements for your B12 then you're doing it wrong... B12 is supposed to come from the food you eat and not from pills.

Carbonfiberboy 

Now we're getting somewhere.

That first link is to a foundation set up by Dr. Furhrman, the well-known vegan advocate. I read two studies linked on that page:
https://www.clinicalnutritionjournal....076-4/fulltext
The paper showed how supplementation can correct these deficiencies. Every vegan should read this.

The second paper I read:
https://www.drfuhrman.com/library/vegan_athlete.pdf
is not a research paper, but rather a reference for the vegan athlete on how differently one must eat on this diet. One interesting fact is that to get the MDR of iron, one can eat 1 lb. of kale. Again, every vegan should read this.

The Esselstyn links were also good. Dr. Esselstyn seems to have gone at CHD prevention and possible reversal from a different angle than did Dr. Ornish. This study:

Updating a 12-Year Experience With Arrest and Reversal Therapy for Coronary Heart Disease (An Overdue Requiem for Palliative Cardiology) | Dr. Esselstyn's Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease Program

was published in the American Journal of Cardiology. Rather than a "do this and live" approach, Esselstyn used a numbers approach: he forced his subjects down to a 150 total cholesterol level by means of diet and statins. His opinion is that a 150 cholesterol number eliminates heart disease. He monitored his subjects continually for blood markers and cholesterol and was thus able to vary the statin dose and diet to keep the various blood markers normal and not showing deficiencies. This was a good approach with his diseased subjects.

Both Ornish and Esselstyn monitored their vegan subjects very closely. That's obviously a good idea. I think if I had been monitored weekly by a specialist when I tried going vary low-fat, the various things that were going sideways for me might have been caught and remedies found.

OTOH, as far as we know neither the Ornish nor Esselstyn subjects were endurance athletes to begin with nor did they participate in endurance athletics during their treatment period, other than "brisk walks" in the Ornish program.

I noticed that Esselstyn did not report monitoring his subjects cholesterol/HDL nor triglycerides/HDL ratios. Many researchers believe these ratios to be more indicative of heart health than total cholesterol. So I wonder what observational studies conclude has the greater effect on preventing CHD.

In following up the above Esselstyn study in the AJC, I found this meta-analysis:
https://www.ajconline.org/article/S00...278-4/abstract
I eat a lot of whole grains but have no grain belly.

Carbonfiberboy 

You must have missed my link to the diet of a noted strength athlete in post 24. I take B-12 and I'm not even a vegan, just not a meat-eater. We were also diagnosed with low levels of vitamin D, so we supplement that, too.

GeorgeBMac

No, you are wrong again....
The studies ARE published -- and the book I recommended to you includes well over a hundred pages of references to those studies.

But, if you prefer to remain ignorant of them and pretend that they do not exist, that is, of course, your option. But, despite your denials, they very much do exist in peer review format.