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Postexercise anabolic response to protein

Old 01-31-24, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Ha! "Pencil-neck geek" was my nickname, given to me by my star athlete (football, baseball, track & field, wrestling) big brother. Ah, memories.

He's dead now, I'm not yet. My neck is still pencil-shaped, and strangers still yell out, "OMG, eat a sandwich!!!" I'm still riding pretty well, so whatever. Same height and weight as Sepp Kuss, 2.2 times the age, about half the power:

Obligatory thread content: I will get to the gym eventually (and eat more protein, I guess), after Mrs tm finishes her chemo rounds. I don't want to bring home any bugs.
But WOW, those legs . . .Doesn't look like a distortion from the camera. Looks like a toy bike under you.
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Old 01-31-24, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
But WOW, those legs . . .Doesn't look like a distortion from the camera. Looks like a toy bike under you.
The photo does make my legs look weird.

21-inch quads, barely above average for an old guy. Legs are kind of long (49% of height), but not that long (average is 45%).

So a normal-ish pencil-neck geek:


Pencil-neck in the Cycology jersey
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Old 01-31-24, 01:34 PM
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as far as i'm aware, the concept of protein consumption post exercise, being able to 'last' a long time (i.e., if you consume more than X grams it gets excreted out - which is incorrect) has been available for a long time, i can't recall exactly when i started recommending this to my athlete and i don't recall there being any evidence of a cap at 25g for decades. that said the concept of taking 100g post exercise, is novel to me.

FWIW, those who are feeling underrecovered post strength training, i find that lifting heavy (near max) with minimal reps has little negative effect on me. for the majority of athletes i coach (ages range from 17 to 72) i usually suggest bike intervals in the morning and strength work in the afternoon. i found that significantly upping my total daily protein intake had a positive effect on my recovery.
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Old 01-31-24, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Ha! "Pencil-neck geek" was my nickname, given to me by my star athlete (football, baseball, track & field, wrestling) big brother. Ah, memories.

He's dead now, I'm not yet. My neck is still pencil-shaped, and strangers still yell out, "OMG, eat a sandwich!!!" I'm still riding pretty well, so whatever. Same height and weight as Sepp Kuss, 2.2 times the age, about half the power:



Obligatory thread content: I will get to the gym eventually (and eat more protein, I guess), after Mrs tm finishes her chemo rounds. I don't want to bring home any bugs.

Yeah, you got the roadie bod thing going. This is from last spring. I've managed to pack on a kilo since then, but I have another couple to go. Hope all goes well with Mrs. tm!



Photo credit, Michael Hyman
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Old 01-31-24, 04:06 PM
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Great...posting pics. Here I am in my mid 60s doing a low key hill climb race - Montebello 6 miles long on the finishing 8% grade. It was really hot on the climb. I wanted to post a climbing NorCal pic to match Terry. I look about the same today. I eat a lot of protein (all meat) mostly later in the day. Eating more and eating more protein has helped both my wife and I in the gym and on the bike.
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Old 01-31-24, 07:23 PM
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Just in case you guys were worried, I'm not going to post a photo of myself featuring my short fat legs and paunch.
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Old 01-31-24, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RChung
Just in case you guys were worried, I'm not going to post a photo of myself featuring my short fat legs and paunch.
I will enjoy my high protein, red meat dinner a lot more tonight knowing this.
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Old 01-31-24, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by RChung
Just in case you guys were worried, I'm not going to post a photo of myself featuring my short fat legs and paunch.
Aw, cmon. It’s just us here!
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Old 01-31-24, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
My utterly uneducated hypothesis has been that some loss of muscle with age is inevitable. At 72, I'm opening as many jars as I ever did, but it's become more difficult in the last 10 or 15 years. I'm using it, but I'm still losing it.
At 70 with (I'm presuming) arthritic hands that were never powerful (got my mom's build, not my dad's that could twist off anything, no tools need) I can still open all the jars. Just need bigger and better tools! (I have moka coffee makers. I now grease the threads with olive oil every cup.)

Originally Posted by terrymorse
Ha! "Pencil-neck geek" was my nickname, given to me by my star athlete (football, baseball, track & field, wrestling) big brother. Ah, memories.

He's dead now, I'm not yet. My neck is still pencil-shaped, and strangers still yell out, "OMG, eat a sandwich!!!" I'm still riding pretty well, so whatever. Same height and weight as Sepp Kuss, 2.2 times the age, about half the power:



Obligatory thread content: I will get to the gym eventually (and eat more protein, I guess), after Mrs tm finishes her chemo rounds. I don't want to bring home any bugs.
I can fully relate! (With the pencil neck and the Kuss-like overall dimensions.) Except, again I got my mom's build with narrow shoulders. That I narrowed further ~1/4" at a time with each of 4 collar bone breaks. Had to wear jacket and tie for a half decade of schooling. Almost all my dress shirts were blue because I had a source for 15-34.

And off topic but goofy and fun. I spent some of my boatbuilding years making Wylie 34s. Never said this out loud but I had the thought many times "I build those Wylies with 34 arms and legs."
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Old 02-02-24, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01

Thanks. I'm not just here trying to make out like this isn't a real issue. I actually am concerned about my own apparent muscle loss at my age of 65 yo. However I'm hoping that it's more due to my insufficient amount of exercise I'm getting for all of my body. Legs aren't a big issue since I do cycle. But my upper body is suffering badly. And I can't find the motivation to go to the gym regularly even though I frequently encourage others to do so.

Regardless of why I'm losing muscle, I do need to find some incentive to work out more.
Use it or lose it.

I've done a few threads about resistance exercise in Pills and Ills.

Cycling doesn't do much for the posterior chain, or the core.
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Old 02-02-24, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney

At 70 with (I'm presuming) arthritic hands that were never powerful (got my mom's build, not my dad's that could twist off anything, no tools need) I can still open all the jars. Just need bigger and better tools! (I have moka coffee makers. I now grease the threads with olive oil every cup.)



I can fully relate! (With the pencil neck and the Kuss-like overall dimensions.) Except, again I got my mom's build with narrow shoulders. That I narrowed further ~1/4" at a time with each of 4 collar bone breaks. Had to wear jacket and tie for a half decade of schooling. Almost all my dress shirts were blue because I had a source for 15-34.

And off topic but goofy and fun. I spent some of my boatbuilding years making Wylie 34s. Never said this out loud but I had the thought many times "I build those Wylies with 34 arms and legs."
You can fix that, I'm 72, and I've been growing my shoulders (among other things)

You have a bunch of small shoulder muscles. One old school exercise is to take light dumbells, hold them in front of your chest, then move about a foot at an upward angle. You'll feel the shoulder muscles working when you are doing it right. Small muscle, light weight, lots of reps. Eazy Peazey.

You do have big muscles below the small ones, delts and traps.

I have a ton of rubber bands and straps and such. I cut some of the bands (they look like a fan belt in your car) to make straps. Stand on one, bend over and grab low enough to get some tension, them make like you are pulling your pants up. Bend over just a tiny bit, and the range of motion goes a little past your pants. But it's not hard to generate a lot of resistance working your back effectively. It's also easy on the joints.
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Old 02-02-24, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by late
You can fix that, I'm 72, and I've been growing my shoulders (among other things)

You have a bunch of small shoulder muscles. One old school exercise is to take light dumbells, hold them in front of your chest, then move about a foot at an upward angle. You'll feel the shoulder muscles working when you are doing it right. Small muscle, light weight, lots of reps. Eazy Peazey.

You do have big muscles below the small ones, delts and traps.

I have a ton of rubber bands and straps and such. I cut some of the bands (they look like a fan belt in your car) to make straps. Stand on one, bend over and grab low enough to get some tension, them make like you are pulling your pants up. Bend over just a tiny bit, and the range of motion goes a little past your pants. But it's not hard to generate a lot of resistance working your back effectively. It's also easy on the joints.
A little OT, but it is winter. From October to December I gym twice a week, and among many other things, I do 3 supersets of 12 rep dumbbell raises, all same weight: lateral raises all the way to vertical (gives the muscles a tiny break), then front raises one arm at a time, then rear deltoid raises. 1 minute break between the supersets. 78. Not exactly a cycling exercise, more of a long-term survival exercise. Does help keep the shoulders and neck from getting tired though. I use 8-12 lb. My wife rides dressage as well as the tandem, does them too. For traps, I do shrugs.
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Old 02-02-24, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by late
You can fix that, I'm 72, and I've been growing my shoulders (among other things)

You have a bunch of small shoulder muscles. One old school exercise is to take light dumbells, hold them in front of your chest, then move about a foot at an upward angle. You'll feel the shoulder muscles working when you are doing it right. Small muscle, light weight, lots of reps. Eazy Peazey.

You do have big muscles below the small ones, delts and traps.

I have a ton of rubber bands and straps and such. I cut some of the bands (they look like a fan belt in your car) to make straps. Stand on one, bend over and grab low enough to get some tension, them make like you are pulling your pants up. Bend over just a tiny bit, and the range of motion goes a little past your pants. But it's not hard to generate a lot of resistance working your back effectively. It's also easy on the joints.
I do basically that only tailored to compensate for missing tendons etc, in my left shoulder but still, my shoulder balls are much closer than either spec or my liking. Can't change the frame without taking myself to a body shop.
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Old 02-04-24, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
The study looks at the effect of a single meal of protein after exercise on amino acid levels in blood and incorporation into muscle. The big surprises are that this effect is a lot larger with a 100g meal than a 25 g meal (which was thought to be near the limit for stimulating muscle protein synthesis) and that the effect can lasts longer with more protein and can last for at least 12 hours. As a bit of background, the amino acids from that meal aren't just going to the muscle and being turned into protein, they're turning on a cascade of biochemical signals that change protein metabolism for a long time.

Nevertheless, this can't be the whole story or guys like me who are trying to make gains in the weight room and maybe overdoing the protein a little bit would look like the Incredible Hulk instead of pencil-necked geeks.
Doc, I'd like to suggest TRT for them gains, but after nearly two months I can't say I've noticed any difference. Although I was coming from a deficit so maybe it'll take longer at my age to notice any difference. Everyone else I know who's tried it say it was darned near miraculous. I'm starting to wonder if my vials are filled with just the oil base they use to keep it in suspension.

But I don't have the kind of physique that bulks up. Never did as a youngster either. I boxed amateur from 132-155 at 1/4" shy of 6', and was always a stringbean. I'm still only 165, and that's heavy for me now, the most I've weighed since 2014. But I've had to cut way back on cycling and jogging due to injuries.

Eh, maybe I should take up lifting. Start on some brand new exercise related injuries.
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Old 02-05-24, 12:25 AM
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Gym time for me is all about increasing endurance, rather than just increasing strength. I put on weight very easily(both fat and muscle mass,) so I have to work at staying light for cycling. I can come off the couch and hold 1000 watts in a sprint, but having a decent w/kg FTP is a constant struggle for me.

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Old 02-05-24, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Sierra_rider
Gym time for me is all about increasing endurance, rather than just increasing strength. I put on weight very easily(both fat and muscle mass,) so I have to work at staying light for cycling. I can come off the couch and hold 1000 watts in a sprint, but having a decent w/kg FTP is a constant struggle for me.
I’m curious what gym work you do specifically for endurance? I’m the opposite. I use the gym primarily to gain muscle strength and rely on my bike for building endurance.
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Old 02-05-24, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat
Doc, I'd like to suggest TRT for them gains, but after nearly two months I can't say I've noticed any difference. Although I was coming from a deficit so maybe it'll take longer at my age to notice any difference. Everyone else I know who's tried it say it was darned near miraculous. I'm starting to wonder if my vials are filled with just the oil base they use to keep it in suspension.

But I don't have the kind of physique that bulks up. Never did as a youngster either. I boxed amateur from 132-155 at 1/4" shy of 6', and was always a stringbean. I'm still only 165, and that's heavy for me now, the most I've weighed since 2014. But I've had to cut way back on cycling and jogging due to injuries.

Eh, maybe I should take up lifting. Start on some brand new exercise related injuries.
Never had my testosterone checked. Might turn me into an alpha male!
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Old 02-05-24, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I’m curious what gym work you do specifically for endurance? I’m the opposite. I use the gym primarily to gain muscle strength and rely on my bike for building endurance.
Low volume, high weight...mostly squats, deadlifts, lunges, weighted box steps, as well as some other core work. The studies suggest that this increases time to exhaustion on the bike, this is what I meant by increased endurance...poorly worded on my part. I try to keep my volume low, as I put on muscle mass very easily. I guess that it's a good problem to have, but most of my events include a fair bit of climbing, so I'm trying to find the balance of power/weight.
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Old 02-05-24, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
The study looks at the effect of a single meal of protein after exercise on amino acid levels in blood and incorporation into muscle. The big surprises are that this effect is a lot larger with a 100g meal than a 25 g meal (which was thought to be near the limit for stimulating muscle protein synthesis) and that the effect can lasts longer with more protein and can last for at least 12 hours. As a bit of background, the amino acids from that meal aren't just going to the muscle and being turned into protein, they're turning on a cascade of biochemical signals that change protein metabolism for a long time.

Nevertheless, this can't be the whole story or guys like me who are trying to make gains in the weight room and maybe overdoing the protein a little bit would look like the Incredible Hulk instead of pencil-necked geeks.
But does a higher protein balance necessarily imply more muscle growth?
I'm sure there is a genetic component to what happens with amino acids in muscles and how muscles grow. Just because you increase their amount, won't lead to higher muscle growth in everyone I would assume.
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Old 02-05-24, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Sierra_rider
Low volume, high weight...mostly squats, deadlifts, lunges, weighted box steps, as well as some other core work. The studies suggest that this increases time to exhaustion on the bike, this is what I meant by increased endurance...poorly worded on my part. I try to keep my volume low, as I put on muscle mass very easily. I guess that it's a good problem to have, but most of my events include a fair bit of climbing, so I'm trying to find the balance of power/weight.
This is exactly what I do in the gym.
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Old 02-05-24, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
But does a higher protein balance necessarily imply more muscle growth?
I'm sure there is a genetic component to what happens with amino acids in muscles and how muscles grow. Just because you increase their amount, won't lead to higher muscle growth in everyone I would assume.
Yeah, that's the big question and, assuming the data reported here are right, the answer is not any sort of linear relationship.
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Old 02-05-24, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I’m curious what gym work you do specifically for endurance? I’m the opposite. I use the gym primarily to gain muscle strength and rely on my bike for building endurance.

With all the athletes i work with, it's low reps and high weights in the gym. obviously, if you've never lifted before you don't want to start that way because the likelihood is you'll injure yourself (which you obviously don't want to do). So, in that instance i start with light weights and high reps. The evidence tends to show that lifting near maximal weights increases endurance and sprint powers

FWIW, I've increased my bone mineral density, increased my muscle mass, and lost 6 kg in weight. My 5-sec peak power has risen ~150 W and my FTP is up by ~ 10-15 W. These are *all-time* bests at 54 yrs old (55 next month), and my power data goes back to when i was 24 or 25 yrs old (i believe i have the largest collection of power data on a single person). Same weight as in my 20s (currently equal lightest). Earlier today i tapped out a 3-minute power PR (in the last 5 years -- i haven't checked back further than that yet). just about to start my 41st consecutive race season. currently my cycling streak is ~7.25 years.
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Old 02-05-24, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Sierra_rider
Low volume, high weight...mostly squats, deadlifts, lunges, weighted box steps, as well as some other core work. The studies suggest that this increases time to exhaustion on the bike, this is what I meant by increased endurance...poorly worded on my part. I try to keep my volume low, as I put on muscle mass very easily. I guess that it's a good problem to have, but most of my events include a fair bit of climbing, so I'm trying to find the balance of power/weight.
Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering if you meant cardio based gym work like circuit training.
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Old 02-05-24, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
The big surprises are that this effect is a lot larger with a 100g meal than a 25 g meal (which was thought to be near the limit for stimulating muscle protein synthesis) and that the effect can lasts longer with more protein and can last for at least 12 hours. As a bit of background, the amino acids from that meal aren't just going to the muscle and being turned into protein, they're turning on a cascade of biochemical signals that change protein metabolism for a long time.
There is a persistent meathead myth that the body can only assimilate 20 (or 25 or 30, depending on who's repeating it) grams of protein from a meal, but there has never been a good basis for it to the best of my knowledge. Our bodies are not as stupid as we tend to imagine them, thankfully.
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Old 02-05-24, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
There is a persistent meathead myth that the body can only assimilate 20 (or 25 or 30, depending on who's repeating it) grams of protein from a meal, but there has never been a good basis for it to the best of my knowledge. Our bodies are not as stupid as we tend to imagine them, thankfully.
I can't cite the papers, but I think the evidence for this was fairly good. If assimilate means incorporate into muscle protein, then this study doesn't contradict that either. Rather, what they're showing, if my essentially lay reading of this is correct, is that the 100g protein meal has a "pharmacological" effect on the incorporation of labelled amino acids administered IV during the experiment. Maybe it signals to the body that, "we just slaughtered a mammoth and we have to eat it before it goes bad, so you can make all the muscle you want without depriving other tissues and systems of amino acids."
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