This is another reservation of mine ---- would like to at least jump start the beast naturally if I could

You may be able to do that, depending on what is medically causing your levels to be low. For others of us, supplementation is the avenue we must take. I'd say that generally, if you are really low in the normal range (or below), you are probably going to have to supplement.

I agree with the reccommendation of exhausting natural approaches first.
Weight training, sleeping enough, healthy fats, D aspartic acid may be worth a shot.

If nothing works, then see a doctor.

Does anyone have any numbers-actual numbers same lab etc
Doing "natural things" checking T levels- same lab etc both free and total T
Check level- weight lift for one month-recheck level same lab same time of day etc?
Just a guess but I suspect the changes would be tiny -probably within normal variation.

I'd say they aren't drastic, especially after only a month.
But I refuse to believe that, if you aren't already lifting, learning to strength train properly would have very noticeable effects over the course of a year.

I understand that TRT is needed for a lot of people, but I think I would try other ways first, as TRT isn't really a solution, it's something to live with forever. Right now, it may seem like a great ideea to me, but when I'm 60 and I've been injecting for 35 years I think I'm going to be tired of it and suffering some health effects.

Before you start taking a shot or a pill for what ails you, make sure there are no deficiencies in your diet or lifestyle factors that need to be changed.

Anecdotal : I eat low carb / high fat and am screaming toward 50... my weight is good, all my numbers are good, and I have plenty of lead in my pencil.

I went from 290 to 450 in about 6 weeks by going from heavily trained and compromised sleep. After resting more, cutting back on riding and starting to lift weights it came back up a little. 450 is nothing to brag about, that's for sure, but directionally it was correct. I think you need to be at 600 at a minimum, but that's just my feelings on the matter.

Fat Boy-do you think aerobic training in general-decreases T?
I wonder where the line is between training and overtraining??
Lotta folks here probably do 1.5-2 hrs a day of bike work???
Bike riding is like swimming-you can overtrain too easily
since it isn't weight bearing it doesn't beat you up enough to let you know you are overtraining
Until you get an overuse injury

I think there is a an appropriate dose as far as all training goes. If you're putting in really big miles with a lot of intensity, I think it will throw your hormone levels off. I start to notice a complete lack of ability to recover from a training ride. I get to the point where I just can't ride a hard interval. The only thing to do is rest.

One of the things that pros have going for them is the ability to absorb a tremendous workload. I don't have that.

I am not talking full out Stallone level testosterone. (add a zinc citrate tab 50mg every nite- for a month see the results, most men are Z deficient as well as vit. D)

All this involves a rational - test, test test (not testosterone, but blood work) see if their is any underlying issues first- then read read read- its not just a poke in the butt every week, you have to be evolving learning. Be thankful that you are going to take your health to optimum ++, and then look at it with a doctor- see several. It also has to be balanced with anti-estrogens, and answer other questions like do you want to cycle on an off, maybe supplement with GH peptides like IGF or GRF or IPA, or all 3? Peptides are a good safe way to get over some injuries and its very safe- mind you more reading and it doesnt help test, but good none the less. there is a popular peptide forum on the internet look it up.

There is so much stuff medically out their now and you the only person as concerned as you. You can be an expert and know the pants (pun intended) off most docs and HRT guys by some careful study.

My thinking on this is I would rather live shorter but feel better than 90 and barely be around. My old age pension plan involves a garage and a running car- so my thinking my be a bit radical but you know what I am getting at.

Hormone replacement therapy HRT, where have I heard that before? on yeah Female HRT.

Docs use to place women it all the time. They do not do that any more without reason. When will a study come out that Male HRT is also risky, as well. Probably after several of the patents for testosterone expire. So get hooked on the stuff now before it is too late...

Patents on Testosterone and various derivatives-long expired-perhaps the fancy gel preps-or patches- have some patent protection-but who cares since they aren't that great
There are already studies indicating increased MI risk

On female HRT- big study indicated harm about 2002-more recent followup of a Danish study "found" the EXACT opposite in respect the MI risk-not only did it NOT increase MIs-it decreased them!!
Same breast cancewr findings-HRT "causes/promotes" breast cancer-no way around that.
Both showed it decreased serious bone fractures-a BIG PLUS since other ways of decreasing osteoporosis(bisphosphonates) probably have some Problems(occasionally they 'cause" some odd fractures" potentially a very big deal)

In any case there is already "downside" info out there.
There NEVER is a free lunch drug wise.
Now vitamins micronutrients-they aren't drugs more like than "normal food" which a lot of food-ISN'T anymore

Squats, dead lifts, pullups and benches (in order) have the highest hormonal response. Heavier the better as long as you avoid massive fatigue.

I've heard amazing things about a South American root called Maca... A few studies, but would like to see them replicated.

Also what lifters / body builders call, ZMA... B6, Zinc, and Magnesium have been shown to increase T in many studies. Not like shots but significantly.

If you don't mind some shots, I've read of people on HCG only with good results.

Yep, that's because they use Primarin... A HORSE estrogen on women.... Oh and don't regulate progesterone.

Kinds like using DECA, for male HRT only worse.

From longevity point Female HRT is best when human estrogen is used with progesterone and they both need to eb and flow...

I do think that doing heavier lifting has helped. I do the first 3 you mentioned. I take a couple D3 gel-caps per day, 6000 I.U., I don't know if I need them. I also eat some powdered maca root several times a week (I mix it with coconut milk, cinnamon and ginger in my sweet potato). I really don't know if it does anything.

I'm sure there are all sorts of things you could do if you were willing to bust out a needle. At this point, I still like to race every once in a while and I _really_ don't want to be THAT GUY!

I should probably grab some ZMA. I've read about it many times, but I'm not taking it. I know it was originally developed by Victor Conte and I think he has some snake-oil salesman in him. Having said that, the guy does know about hormones, so...

had mine tested a year or so ago. when I called it for the results the nurse (female) was not that friendly, as if: "geez another guy screwing with his testosterone" like she had enough of it. totally unprofessional and I cud just imagine her colleagues in the background snickering. when I asked where it fell in the range of normal she wasn't helpful at all and quoted a huge range of numbers. mine sounded like it was in the lower 5th of that range, but still "normal". I'm getting a physical next week, maybe I'll ask a real doctor what he thinks. I don't remember what the number was. are the units of measure always the same. I seem to remember some discrepancy on that front. also what's a normal range based on age ...? I'll be 55 in a couple months

rum--I found this article on normal testosterone levels.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/0...terone-levels/

There must be different charts for cyclists and normal people
When I had problems with Low test I bought testosterone boosters. It helped me a lot.
According to https://naturaltestosteronepills.com:
"Testosterone boosters are a class of herbal supplements aimed at naturally increasing your testosterone levels. They can work by directly increasing testosterone or by inhibiting hormones responsible for converting testosterone to estrogen. Either way, in the end, these supplements are meant to help you recover faster and build bigger, stronger muscles."

Confused. I agree with the first part of the statement in that there are quantifiable medical benefits for someone to begin HRT if they have extremely low naturally occurring levels of T, but why would anyone begin therapy merely by reaching a certain age? I am 52 and my T (tested last month) is slightly under 600. What benefit would beginning a treatment regimen at this point provide me?

Keith

Definitely lifting weights I think helps. Glad I eat sardines for breakfast and snack on Almonds. I need carbs for my 2 hr commute, just not excess carbs

It is sad what doctors consider normal these days.
But yes, i will echo the 'general vibe' i've got from skimming...

A normal, healthy diet, with moderate levels of meat, fat, carbs, and protein -- will work wonders. Cut out the processed stuff. Cut out the fake butter (use real). Cut out anything that says "reduced fat" - and replace it with something natural instead. The fact of the matter is - when eating healthy and non-processed, it's pretty hard to overeat and get fatter.

That being said - give that a shot for a month - and then get retested. Feel from to add ZMA to your nightly routing as well...but if you start waking up with a really slow stream (prostate) discontinue the ZMA.