who said anything about barely making 8 lengths?

oh and 50 meters without breathing - yeah right

thanks for the book suggestion - I will look for it!

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you're stopping after every lap to rest and breathe, you definitely would not be able to swim 8 laps continuously (unless you're doing sprints, of course.)

I have to say that this is probably not the way to go. Actually, it certainly is not the way to go. This could relieve any pain that you are having as long as you are not actually pulling quickly under the water. As a "professional" swim coach, this is something that I would not teach anyone to do. If you are pulling with some force this will actually cause some shoulder impingement. To alleviate your pain (and to get faster) you should try pulling with your forearm, as others have suggested, with your fingers pointed towards the bottom. When your hand enters the water some people describe the position your arm should be in as if you are reaching over a barrel. Once you get into that position, you should use your forearm to "pull".

As for breathing every stroke, this is something that you can do ONLY if you are a REALLY good swimmer. Generally, most of us are not. We need to swim a majority of laps breathing to both sides to keep our strokes honest. Many swimmers train while breathing to both sides, then race when breathing to one side. If you continually breath to the same side, you will eventually hurt one shoulder. You can trying one lap breathing only to the right side, then another breathing to the left side. Then you can still breathe every stroke if you wish. This brings me to another point: Generally people who get tired easily in swimming are not spending enough time exhaling. Blowing bubbles is the most important thing in swimming. Breathing every 3rd or 5th stroke will help you exhale slower.

I would also recommend to any swimmer that they take breaks during their swims. When Michael Phelps trains sure he does the occasional 3,000 yards without stopping, but 90% of the time he is doing 25, 50, 100, 200 yards in a row then stopping for 10,20,30 seconds - then he goes again. I see triathletes swim and swim and swim without stopping all of the time. I wonder what they are working on. They get more tired. Their strokes fall apart.....it just gets ugly.

Sorry for the rant, riding my bike is only my hobby. Coaching swimming is my passion (and job!).

nbac23 - who are the "they" mentioned in your signature? students? why do I think you coach little league too? nice avatar

about your advice - I appreciate it. I feel like a slug though because our company moved this week and I haven't been to any of my gyms since last weekend. I had a routine and now it's blown out of the water, every pun intended. In place of my 2 mile lunchtime run on my gym's treadmill, I walk the indoor mall with "the ladies" ugh. and after work I just went straight home for dinner and tv, double ugh

I don't feel so bad now for stopping after every lap and I feel that the more I train the shorter my rests will be. When I started a couple months ago I was jumping back in the whirlpool after every round trip - not sure to call a lap a lap or a round trip a lap ... in any case this next week is gonna be different than last week, I swear

Have you looked at the book SWIMMING FASTEST by Maglischo? It's a big fat textbook on all aspects of swimming, and I didn't see anything about breathing every stroke being only for very good swimmers. In fact, he recommends it for anyone swimming over sprint distances, as it is gives the most oxygenation, and that is generally the limiting factor in non-sprint races.

Learning to alternate breathing on the right and then left sides is important to tri's so you can see if you're on course and not swimming into someone

How do I evaluate my speed. With running, it's pretty clear to me what a jog is, what a 2 mile run is, and what sprinting is for me. With swimming I just find my comfort zone and do that, but I don't what it is, a jog, a run, or a sprint.

One thing I do to measure my efficiency is count the number of strokes to do a lap. Getting faster and stronger involves improving form and techique as much as anything.

You can also time your laps.

I have read/browsed Maglischo's books (Swimming Fast, Swimming Faster, Swimming Fastest). They have a lot of good stuff in it, but in swimming circles we take that with a grain of salt. Things in swimming change ALL of the time. Maybe thats why he has three books on the exact same subject! He has to keep updating it with the times..... I would say that getting oxygen is very important and is the main reason that most top racers (in events other than sprints) do breathe on every stroke. I know a lot of swimmers that train using different patterns. Ian Thorpe (famous Austrailian swimmer that most people have heard of) races breathing to the right going one way down the pool and to the left the other way down the pool. I believe he does this so that he can keep his stroke honest over the longer distances that he competes in AND to get more oxygen.

I would not recommend that book for triathletes by the way. Its OK if you are REALLY interested in the subject, but most of the info isnt really useful for triathletes. The Terry Laughlin book "Total Immersion" is a good one for beginners. While I do not think his methods work in the Olympic swimming level, they are great for beginners. It will certainly make you swim longer without using as much energy (which is VERY important for Triathletes!!!)
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As for how to judge improvement - in swimming circles we would judge improvement 2 ways. One would be speed over a certain distance (races in competition or in practice). Another would be performance on a "set". The set could be anything. Ex: 10 One hundred yard repeats leaving every 2 minutes. Surviving would be the first step. After you can do that, how fast can you go on each one? Can you do each one faster than one minute thirty seconds? Can you do 9 faster than 1:30 and then do the last one faster than 1:20? something like that. I do not think that triathletes should be afraid of stopping during swim training. It isnt the same as training for distance running or cycling. You will maintain better technique and thus go faster. (of course you dont want to sit on the wall forever either!) As someone else said doing distances with less strokes (less work!) is also a cool thing to play around with.
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And the "they" in my signature is basically everyone that you come in contact with. If you are not having fun isnt it tough to expect others around you to enjoy life as well? (And I do not coach little league.....I have never even played baseball!)

Good advice from all - THANKS I am sticking with it and am amazed at how my body is reacting. Not sure if it is some kind of muscle confusion everyone talks about but this new exercise (swimming) has brought me some new growth and definition all over.

I wish I could turn my brain off though. I find I get distracted and lose my form.

I think I am swimming too fast, any suggestions on slowing down? I don't rest as long between pool lengths but I still do and would love to keep going.

BTW: what's a lap? 1 length or 2?

How fast are you doing 25 yards? assuming you are in a 25 yd. pool?

25 yards would be a length and a lap is considered down and back at our pool. But, at other pools a lap is from one end to the other.

Yes, it is a standard Olympic pool. I haven't timed a length. I do 500 meters, 10 round trips, 20 lengths and it takes about 30 minutes but this includes my resting at each end. I can try to time a single 25 yard length next time I go.

A standard olympic distance is 50m.

flip - I had no idea. I've never even seen a 50 meter pool but have heard the phrase "olympic sized pool" whenever I've been informed of a 25 yard pool with lines and all. Hmm ... there must be other misinformed people out there than just me. Thanks for the info. So then an Olympic lap is 100 yards? wow - I'm even more impressed with those athletes now!

a lap is one length of the pool regardless if it is 25 yards, meters or 50 meters. You wont find many 50 meter indoor pools but there are few outdoor pools that are 50 meter you just may have never noticed it. In the swimming world people usually dont talk how many laps they did they just use distance. Most high school age swimmers do 6-10 thousand a day with a few exception either way. The elite swimmers can do upwards of 15K+ a day. If you are doing 500 a day I would increase your swim time and pick up an extra 200 a week.

Thanks kcgolf. I appreciate the advice! Just when I was getting comfortable with 500 you add ... :-)

Wow I had no idea HS swimmers went to such great lengths. (sorry for the pun - it just came out)

BTW I'll be 50 in a couple of weeks and never swam like this before so I'm excited to be making any progress. The most i swam was a mile at age 17 to get into my SCUBA class back in 1977. UGH to be 17 again, huh? Well, maybe 23.

Weight training tonight swimming again Saturday. (cycled yesterday)

I think Gary Hall Sr (father and coach of Olympic Gold Medalist Gary Hall Jr) will disagree with you. There is a long thread over on the slowtwitch where he gives several swim tips aimed at triathletes. Breathing MORE is one of them!

rumrunn yeah they put in the miles. Dont feel bad, I finally got back in the pool last week after 4 years off. I did 700 and said thats enough for the night. You will be surprised how quickly you will be able to add distance. There are many schools of thought on distance out there. I put more emphasis on stroke especially when trying to get into shape. There is no use swimming more if you are swimming incorrectly. Practice doesnt make perfect; Perfect practice does.

Three months ago I couldn't swim 50 meters without feeling like I was going to heave up a lung, tonight I just got home from doing a 1000 meters without stopping 1200 all together. Watch Jimmy D'shea's video under freestyle (I don't think I spelled his name correctly) on youtube, that was very helpful to me. But the thing that helped me break through the endurance barrier the most was using a bouye between my legs so I could concentrate on technique and not worry so much about drowning and drinking pool water and doing this simple step series (each unit counts as a touch or 1/2 lap) 1,2,3,4,3,2,1. At the end of your endurance workout do some 25 meter sprints and monitor you time. I recomend doing at least 2 sprints. Finally swimming is about doing, make sure you are swimming at least 3 days a week and that you don't miss except for really compelling reasons. Then one day you will find yourself feeling like you can just keep going without stopping, when that day comes you will feel a wonderful sense of accomplishment and sort of at one the universe. For those of us who were never swimmers to begin with swimming is a real kick in the ***. Now I look forward to swimming workouts whereas before I dreaded it. The reason why there are so few triathletes relatively speaking is because people give up on what challenges them most thinking they will never overcome their weaknesses, I personally think swimming is the most challenging of the three to overcome if you have little prior experience. Good luck and just do it man!

I've seen that video ans I liked it. It's always great to hear 1st hand from someone who is passionate about an activity. I dig the soundtrack too.

QUESTION - since I may just be swimming for body transformation would anyone shreak if I used a snorkel?