Helmet Head

Context, Brian, context.

I have always answered questions about my experience when my experience was relevant to something I was saying.

Helmet Head

When John Forester writes, "obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles", to me that means "adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling", which has much in common with, but is not identical to, "obeying traffic law".

Curb hugging (riding in space where pedestrians would walk, with or against traffic), for example, is within the traffic laws, but it is not "obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles", nor is it "adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling".

Edit: this is not a distinction I've seen Mr. Forester make, and indeed, he seems to not recognize it.

Brian Ratliff

So, then, what's your point? Are you a racer? (and not Cat 5, anyone can be a Cat 5 for $15 and a number, even me). If you want Bek to expound on his experience riding with groups; I want you to expound on your experience riding in traffic.

If it matters to you that Bek's comment be based on experience; it matters to me that your comments are based on experience.

Helmet Head

I think it depends on the comment.

I asked for details about his experience with riding in groups in response to his comment about riding with groups, which is the first time I've ever noticed him claim to ride with groups (in contrast to Al, for example, who mentions doing so fairly frequently). And I don't mean to imply that I don't believe him. I just always pictured Bek on either a hybrid or a touring bike with panniers, not on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra. I'm looking to correct/update my image of him.

But when I make a claim that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle, I will not answer irrelevant questions about my experience. It's more to underscore the irrelevancy of my experience to whatever it is that I'm claiming (because I try very hard to make objective self-supporting arguments that are based on premises that I believe all cyclists should be able to accept without knowing anything about the experience of whoever is making those assertions), than to avoid questions about my experience per se.

Brian Ratliff

Whatever lets you sleep at night, HH. Notice that when you are referring to your own questioning one's experience, it is because of a legit reason, and whenever someone asks you for your experience, it's "a claim that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle." But whatever. As long as you can sleep at night...

Helmet Head

Go back and look at the claims I was making when you were complaining about me not answering questions about my experience. You will see that they were claims "that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle."

Now look at the context in which I asked my questions of Bek. They were in regard to specific claims about his own riding which by definition could not have been done "by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle".

Context matters.

Brian Ratliff

Whatever you say, HH.

randya

"...on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra..."

I fail to see how this describes anyone who considers themselves a transportational cyclist, or how the experiences of someone doing the above has any relevance to transportational cycling.

Bekologist

the weekend club fred HH debates MY riding abilites and speed.

Except for my disparaging YOUR weekend club Fred rides, Head, would you think I don't ride tight and fast with the pacelines? I put down 150-350 miles a week, a lot of it tight-n-fast training miles, mr. head.

Isn't this thread about VC acolytes, that, like helemt head, admit they don't ride much? What is this thread about? Isn't this thread about Calling other riders out to their NON-VC riding styles?

zeytoun

I bet I could find you a blind paraplegic that says that he knows of pelotons that will go "team Cinzano" on someone yelling at them about the door zone.... I could find you one, there are ways dude. You don't even want to know.

chipcom 

It's kinda like me, a smoker, giving other folks my 'expert' advice on how to quit because I don't smoke on weekends.

Bekologist

I am kind of wondering that myself; Helemt Head's weekend club fred rides have little in common with solo, transportational vehicular cycling. Weekender Peloton rides are NOT like fighting rush hour traffic as a commuter.

noisebeam

I somewhat agree. I find that bike lanes generally serve weekend club rides better than individual solo riders who need to get anywhere at anytime. Weekend riders can pick their routes and can comfortably ride along the white bike lane stripe, using their mass for visibility even if off to the side. The mass of riders overwhelms the (often incorrect) message bike lanes may send motorists. Riding far right within a bike lane is a bit less hazardous in a mass setting, but also good for a mass of cyclist to do as it can be much more difficult for a motorist to pass a long string of cyclists vs. a solo one.

In otherwords, I find bike lanes to be far easier to ignore when riding with clubs.

This is why as I've mentioned in post #2 in this thread that I am willing to ride non vehiclularly when in clubs.

Al

Helmet Head

It doesn't.

It describes someone who claims to ride with groups that average 22 mph, which is what Bek claimed.

Brian Ratliff

Apparently Bek does ride in fast paced club groups. Now then... what of it?

Helmet Head

I've never smoked a cigarette in my life.
My mom smoked for over 40 years before she quit.

Yet either one of us could make the following statement, and it's just as true regardless of which one of us says it: It really helps to quit smoking by finding a way to feel disgusted about it.

Here's the thing. There are millions of cyclists out there. Each one of us is just one of those cyclists. At best, each cyclist's experience is based on a sample of one. Not very meaningful, nor very relevant, for much of what can be said about cycling. This is why I try to avoid saying much based on my own experience which by definition is based on a sample of one.

Helmet Head

Yes, apparently he does. What of it? It raises these questions:

What bike do you use on those rides? Do these guys race? What cats? Do you?

randya

So instead you parrot a 30 year old book?

Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire!

Bekologist

okay, 21 and 1/2

joejack951

Whatever bike it is, I'm sure it's not affected by pine needles or any other kind of debris

Bekologist

I'm much more concerned about weekend club fredders who pontificate about transportational cycling, than my average speed in the pelotons.

Brian Ratliff

I'm lost. How in the world did we get talking about club riding? I thought we talked about transportational cycling here.

FWIW, if Bek is holding 21 and 1/5 mph, I'd bet he's on a road bike. Or something like a road bike. I'm not sure why it's important that he races. I'm pretty sure, that with 50 miles a week of riding that HH does't race. I'm just trying to find some relevence here. As I understand, HH made a comment about how he's the safety nanny of his group ride, Bek made a comment, and now, we're on to HH wanting to know if Bek races and what bikes he rides and everyone else wanting to know if HH bicycles for transportation.

Brian Ratliff

I'm stretching to search for a relevance here. Why does riding with a club raise questions? I'm not following.

Helmet Head

Actually, I try not to rely on quoting from books either, except on issues that pivot on what was said in the book in question or by the writer in question.

Helmet Head

It's a tangent from the thread topic, to be sure.

It just happened to come up here because Bek made a statement about his riding that contradicted my impression of his riding. So, again, my purpose here is to update/correct my impression of his riding so that it's closer to reality.