DaveLeeNC

I rode my first century (solo) today - well, close anyway.

I didn't ever feel horrible and was close to maintaining my pace (18.5 mph at 50 miles and 18.4 mph at 75 miles - very rolling terrain with no big climbs - 4K total elevation change). This was a cool day (temps pretty flat in the mid 40's most of the time) and if anything I was under-dressed and over-hydrated (had 3 forced pit stops in the first 60 miles). I was sweating very little (if at all) but had consumed almost 3 bottles of Powerade with an added Nunn's tablet in each bottle. There absolutely WAS NO electrolyte problem.

At around 85 miles I started to feel thigh/hamstring cramps creeping in. At that point I was tired but didn't really feel horrible and could still 'pop up over a rise in the big ring' if I wanted to. I had run into cramps (or at least hints of cramps) late in a couple of my 50 to 70 mile training rides, but they were very close to the end of the rides.

During the Century I found that riding out of the saddle seemed to reduce the cramping so I started spending a bunch of time out of the saddle (that is comfortable for me) - pretty much on every rise and this course is just one up/down after another at this point in the ride.

At about 92 miles I was beginning to seriously fight those cramps. It was '10 or 15 revolutions of the cranks, decide which leg was most at risk for cramping, and stand up for 3-5 seconds on that leg'. Then it was 'stand up on both legs'. At mile 96 I was only 1/2 mile from my house, but my route had a 4 mile subdivision loop to end the ride. And at this point both legs seriously and simultaneously went into full cramp mode. I still don't know how I managed to unclip when it was impossible to bend either leg at the knee (that would bring on debilitating cramps), but I somehow unclipped, got off the bike, and just stood with both legs rail straight. That settled down the cramps.

I decided not to proceed because I considered further riding in a subdivision (or anywhere else) to be a serious accident risk. So I skipped the last 4 miles and fortunately it is mostly downhill from that point to my house. So I just stood up with both legs straight and kind of coasted home.

So the question is "if you rule out electrolytes what are the other sources of cramping?". Is this just a sign of trying to do too much? My cycling history is spotty. BTW, I am 65 years old.

1) I rode 'seriously' for a couple years in Ca. in the 90's.
2) I have a number of years between then and now when I was a couch potato
3) Starting a couple years ago I began putting a 2-3 hours a week in on a spinner bike
4) I started training for the century in June and since then have averaged between 5 and 9 hours per week (mix of spinner and bike) with maybe 8 rides over 50 miles (longest being 63 and 69 miles).

The other interesting factoid is that maybe 5 or 6 times I have been sitting in my easy chair with my legs kind of curled up and have experienced one of these cramps just 'out of the blue'. Straighten your leg and it is quickly gone - odd and probably related.

Comments? Thanks.

dave

ps. BTW, I could have finished this darn thing at an average of around 18.3 mph had it not been for those damned cramps. I am basing this on my bike computer which ignores times when you aren't moving. I had a total of 4 stops, each of maybe 45 seconds or so.

DaveLeeNC

FWIW, I found this article particularly helpful.

Team Sky | Performance | Expert guide: How to stop cramp

dave

Machka 

If you genuinely believe that you consumed enough electrolytes and drank enough water ... and if you tried drinking more water and consuming more electrolytes (i.e. eating a package of salted almonds) when you started cramping ... and if none of that helped ...


How tight are the legs of your cycling shorts? Especially the elastic band at the bottom of the legs of your cycling shorts?

Northwestrider

IMO an 18+ average for most of a century is blazing fast for most of us. Is there a possibility you pushed a bit too hard on this ride. That would be my guess, but only a guess.

DaveLeeNC

That is a very interesting question. And I am not sure how to quantify that other than to say that

1) the elastic band does not leave a mark

2) I have (from several years ago when I was 50 pounds heavier) an old pair of cycling shorts that MOST DEFINITELY are not too tight. Cheap experiment.

dave

DaveLeeNC

I have ridden that same basic area for 50 miles at 19.2 mph. But the answer still is probably less or no cramping at an easier pace.

OTOH, my LTHR is 157 (per average HR in the last 20 minutes of a max 30 min TT), and I averaged 142 bpm pretty much staying in the range of 140 to 150 (occasionally more and less on some descents, of course). It doesn't sound off the wall to me. I routinely ride harder in pretty much any training session at any length that I do (other than recovery days). And other than the cramps I was hardly 'out of it' toward the end (but admittedly a bit slower).

But still, there was a problem. I'm guessing that the optimum solution is more long rides and maybe nothing more than more riding. It isn't like I have years of truly hard work behind me here (at least on a bike).

dave

DaveLeeNC

Interesting sidelight here. I have run around 10 marathons, but they were all in the 70's and 80's. After every single one of them (and I was well prepared for all of them - I'd judge better preparation than for this Century ride) I was so sore the next day that just watching me walk made it obvious that something was wrong.

It is now 'the next day' and I don't feel bad and most certainly there is nothing that affects me walking around. I'm a bit surprised at that.

dave

Machka 

Centuries are easier than marathons.

UnfilteredDregs

Temp can be a huge factor... you were cold apparently. What was your cadence? I get the impression that you were mashing a bit, " 'pop up over a rise in the big ring'. "

How's your fit? What other aches & pains?

I've done centuries where I spin it the first 50 and am very fresh for the last 50, fresh enough to easily extend another 20+.

Not enough base miles from what you describe. I ride 100-150 per week, which isn't a lot by many measures but, I divide that among 3-4 rides of 30-60 miles in length. My hill repeats ride is in the 50 mile mark for 6k feet.

Generally I can do a century once a week if I feel like it. On another note I understand that easy chairs and the like aren't the best thing for overall posture, that's what my doctor and a few PT types have mentioned.

So a few things... not dressed right, maybe mashing, and not enough consistent base miles. Personally I believe a great many folks overdo it with the electrolyte supplementation. I'm not sure but I understand that overhydration can flush the body of needed electrolytes. I find the key to hydration is always ensuring through the daily norms of life that you are always properly hydrated, without having to piss like a racehorse.

I ride with water and a variety of normal foods, kind bars, I love French apricots, pound cake.. ...I do carry endurolyte tabs in the heat, pretty innocuous for me. Other than that nothing fancy.

DaveLeeNC

Some random responses.

1) Regarding cadence I naturally on flat ground gravitate to 80 to 90 rpm. I don't exactly have a good perspective regarding how I deal with small ups and downs. Until about 5 weeks ago I was running a 1996 Campy Chorus groupset on my same year Bianchi El-OS frame. Then I had my LBS install a 2014 Chorus groupset. On the old groupset my habits were to stay on the big chainring as much as possible as shifting small/large was most certainly doable but sometimes took two swipes, sometimes 3, etc. With the new groupset front ring shifting is SO EASY and predictable. So a month ago I was almost always out of the saddle and 'popping up' over small rises. With the new groupset I am much more inclined to switch to the small chainring and stay in the saddle. Regarding the ride on Sunday if I were to change anything I would have done LESS spinning in the small chainring as this seemed far less stressful (WRT the cramps) and out of the saddle/higher gears is closer to what most of my training was about. Long term - a different answer. BTW, the old group set was 53/39 front and 12/25 rear (8sp). The new set is 50/34 front and 11/27 rear (11sp).

2) I was not sure what you meant by "How is your fit". My late 90's Bianchi started out as a semi-custom build (and fit) by a LBS in the Bay Area, Ca. It was checked out by the NC LBS that installed the new groupset. I had pretty much ZERO aches and pains outside of the cramps. Given my somewhat limited saddle time (although I did install a racing saddle on my spinner bike it still isn't the same on as on my regular bike) even my butt was only whispering moderate complaints. I was expecting minor knee issues - NOTHING showed up. That was a pleasant surprise. The cramps - a different story.

3) I agree that my base mileage was marginal at best and (IMHO) is the #1 suspect regarding the issues I faced.

4) I would not say that I was cold. HOWEVER, I rode HARD the first 5 miles to warm up. From that point forward I was not uncomfortable but experienced ZERO sweat (not the same as not sweating) during the entire ride, even on the longer climbs (which were not that long). Had I to do it over again I would not have added a layer. I felt fine.

dave

UnfilteredDregs

Hey Dave..

80-90 is a pretty nice place to be, although I notice a big difference between 85rpm and 95...85 is putting some mustard into it for me, not spinning as much as approaching the mash. I get the impression you don't have a cycling computer? Reason I say so is you say you don't know what you're doing on the ups and downs. I downshift and upshift to hold my preferred cadence. If you're dropping cadence significantly and pushing a big gear on hills you're tearing up muscle fibers. For endurance riding you really want to hold back from doing that and spin to shift the load to your cardio. That way you preserve your power longer by not breaking down your muscle fibers. Getting out of the saddle is all about more torque from muscle, there is a time and place for it but for long distances you want to save your legs.

I cramp up in the legs after I've done my hill repeats sometimes. On my way home from my training spot there's one little SOB of a hill, 3/10ths of a mile, averages 10% and it pitches to 20% at the top, last time doing repeats I had tore my legs up and what I got to this bugger when I hit the 20% I felt like there were cables coiling up in both my legs as I got over the top. Sooo....for distance riding, preserve your muscle by utilizing higher cadence and lower gearing.

I strive for low to mid 90s on the flats, I do that by dedicating a short (20 mile) training ride to spinning where I go out and seek to keep it smoothly over 100 on relatively flat terrain, I shoot for 110, 120 is a bear... I want to get rollers next.


Well, about fit...you certainly can be comfortable with you're existing fit but that doesn't mean it's the best for you in terms of your efficiency on the bike. My LBS fit me initially as well but, I went to a fitter and really fine tuned my position on the bike, cleat placement, joint angles, leg length, flexibility assessment, motion analysis...Quite a bit of changes from the LBS fit, a few minor tweeks afterwards due to me changing some components, I'm very happy with what a total fitting has done for me. It could be you're not positioned to produce your power easiest.

Yup!

I wouldn't ride hard the first five miles of a century...if anything I'd spend the first 15 casually warming up. I hit a rider's high around the 60s...if I've done things right.

DaveLeeNC

Just for clarification the reason for the uncertainty on my part is that the recent groupset change has changed my pedaling habits (now MUCH easier to move between small/large chainrings) and those new habits are not (yet) well established. I do have a Bontrager Trip 300 cycling computer.

Thanks for the comments.

dave

Carbonfiberboy 

Undertrained/overworked. Simple. There is no proven connection between cramping and either hydration or electrolytes in spite of considerable anecdotal testimony. However there is a well known and well proven connection between cramping and working at over your training level. If you're doing 150 miles/week or so, then it's almost certainly insufficient high end work: hill repeats, LT speed work on the flat and the like. A very simple workout on the flat is 5 reps X 5' work X 1' easy at LT effort or so.

I would not suspect either fit or cadence. Since you cramped both sides of your legs (perfect), your pedaling style is also not at fault. I am more of a seated climber who does not do well at long distance if I stand and pop over stuff. However there are many people who do, and it sounds like you might be one of them. One thing you might not have done is to stand and pedal more frequently when not going hard. I try to get up about every 10 minutes and stretch my legs at a low cadence. However, in this case I don't think that would have had much of an effect.

achoo

Nailed it.

You cramped on your first century? In other words, you'd never ridden that far before. And because there were a lot of other riders around, I'd bet you were pushing harder than you really should have been - even after that five minute hard effort to start, especially early in the ride. You paid for that "HARD" effort later.

Welcome to the club.

On my first century I cramped so bad and so suddenly you can see where I cramped on the GPS plot - I almost fell over and I started wobbling all over the road. About 80 miles into the ride. The last 20 miles were hard...

Carbonfiberboy 

Thinking about the article to which you linked: Yes, certainly we lose muscle mass as we age, and more rapidly than when we were younger. I used to get calf cramps on long rides and fixed them easily by doing sets of one-legged calf raises to exhaustion once a week. Similarly, you could try doing barbell squats to exhaustion using enough weight to allow 30 or so reps. I usually use between 95 and 135 for that. Similarly, straight legged barbell deadlifts to exhaustion at 30 reps or so, quite light reps, maybe 30-60 lbs., keeping the bar close to your shins and done very smoothly.

And congratulations and kudos for your considerable talent.

DaveLeeNC

That is an encouraging comment if only for the fact that it implies that in your (more informed than my) opinion, that kind of mileage can be enough (over enough time, anyway).

FWIW, I did a fair amount of 'hard work' but only for a few months. My 'favorite' was 10x2min of 'simulated hard climbing' with 1 min rest as that was/is very similar to how this route rides. But like I said only a few months.

dave

DaveLeeNC

Don't think it matters but this was a 'pure solo effort' (I was the organizer and sole rider). Regardless it would appear that (based on results) I was riding harder than I should have been even though (outside of 'the warm-up') it seemed pretty restrained. I would like to think that a couple miles of hard effort would be very recoverable, but maybe not.

dave

Carbonfiberboy 

Longer efforts, too. If you have the available vertical, 2 X 20' LT climbing intervals are a good start. If you don't, do 3 X 15' at LT on the flat. If you don't have the room, trainer or rollers with resistance work very well for this. Once you are going good on the LT stuff, then do harder, shorter efforts. And yes, everything gets better with time and consistent training. Yes, going hard at the start is recoverable, but it does put a dent in your resources. I've done rides where a 15' LT climb starts after the first mile. My definition of being in form is having the ability to recover.

FLvector

96 miles is close enough to a century in my books. Especially solo, so good for you.

I had a similar experience with leg cramps while doing a century this weekend. I did the Horrible Hundred in Clermont, FL with about 5,000 ft of climbing, with some nasty climbs in the last 20 miles. I hit a big hole and launched a water bottle at about mile 20 and kept moving since there was plenty of support to refill. I averaged 21 mph for the first 75 miles and was feeling good, but once I hit the biggest hill at mile 80 I felt the quads begin to cramp. I've done several centuries and never experienced the intensity of these cramps and was forced to unclip and straighten the legs to relax the muscles. After a few minutes things calmed down and was able to continue. I was fine for the next 10 miles or so, hitting a few more hills with no problem. Started to push again, then hit another hill and started to feel the quads and hamstrings start to cramp again and needed to unclip and do the same for about a minute. Was able to push through the last few hills, but backed off the pace some.

I believe for me it was a combination of pushing a slightly faster than normal pace, under-hydrating and not enough electrolytes. Launching the water bottle near the beginning set this up, so probably would have drank more otherwise. Lesson learned. It was a humbling ride, but really enjoyed it.

chaadster

I think it's pretty much settled, but yeah, that's what I'd bet on, too.

DaveLeeNC

That remains my best guess as well. Additionally I TRULY HOPE that is the issue. I know how to address this one.

OTOH, there are two wildcards out there

1) On at least a half dozen occasions I have been sitting in my easy chair and and experienced a sudden onset of a serious cramp on the inside of my left thigh (one of the places that was an issue on my ride). At a bare minimum this was at least 4 hours after my last exercise. More likely 6, 8 or the previous day. This shows up in a VERY specific/small place and it is/was the same/exact place as the first onset of cramps on Sunday. Interestingly now that I am almost 48 hours past the end of the ride, that same place is still sore. It isn't exactly a muscle soreness like after excessive exercise, but more like somebody hit it with a hammer really hard yesterday (feels like a bruise). But keep in mind this wasn't the only cramp location, OTOH it was definitely first.

2) I have a well established history of pushing my legs past their capabilities. I have run for 3'ish hours on a hot day, went past the 10 mile marker at 59:50 (it was at Boston and that was the first marker that I saw - I was horrified and slowed down instantly), I took in ZERO water or anything else (I could never drink when I was running) for the entire race, and was doing 9:30 minute miles at the end. I felt like crap, my legs didn't work, but I had NO CRAMPS. OTOH, I didn't have any cramps after 3 hours on Sunday either. BTW, this was the year of Rosie Ruiz and she didn't pass me

I hope that this is simply a conditioning thing. I worry that either something else is going or that it is an age thing.

dave

Carbonfiberboy 

Well, age doesn't help, but no it's not really an age thing except that it gets harder to make oneself do it the older one gets (69). Which is probably the reason most folks get sedentary with age. As you saw, it's not dehydration, etc. That's been well proven in med tent studies. No difference in electrolyte or hydration levels between crampers and finishers.

The cramping later is also very common. Then there are night cramps, also very common. Doctors call these "idiopathic cramps." (google) My wife has suffered from these for years. Me, never. Identical diets, exercise, etc. I'm currently trying 500mcg sublingual B12/day. So far, no cramps but we're only a few days into this study. You can also try The Stick after a hard workout.

The soreness after cramping is normal. That's the big reason you want to avoid cramping. Doesn't help fitness at all. Sucks.

Again, you might try squats, etc., as suggested earlier. They'll make you sore, too. You just think you're in shape. You get in shape, you should go out for some age-class bike races.

FLvector

After a long, hard ride I sometimes experience cramps in the hamstrings a few hours later. It usually occurs after resting, then bending the leg to engage the muscle. If I catch it immediately I can straighten the leg and stretch the muscle, making it quickly dissipate. Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often.

klondike300

I found now that I'm older I need to up my cadence. I've always been a gear grinder but the last few years trying to turn over the same gears gave me quad or inner thigh/hamstring cramps. Same miles, better food but just getting older.

I've been working on the trainer spinning this winter and so far have been good. Now I just have to remember to do that on my longer rides.

DaveLeeNC

Some very interesting reading in this link (including a 'pickle juice theory' that I had never heard).

Cramping My Style

dave