I toured on 48 spoke rear wheels carrying full camping gear ,
only 1 DS spoke broke.
It was on a 126 wide hub
(by Phil Wood & Co., using a 7 speed freewheel )

Internal gear hubs offer dishless builds.
in narrower spaced frames,
since they don't need to move the right flange aside
to make room for all those sprockets..

My personal experiences are only of value in the sense that I am a heavy rider at 240lbs. This may not be nearly as heavy as the rider you encountered but I ride my off road bike rather hard - not rail trail but rocks, roots, jumps, creeks etc. so not a friendly operating environment.

The suggestions of using a tandem hub and spreading the frame could help with strength issues if the bike can accommodate it. The single most important factors in wheel strength and durability are adequate and balanced tension. Most wheels come right from the factory grossly under tensioned. Additionally, when people true the wheels as they go out of whack, they don't pay attention to tension balance often enough. Essentially a wheel assembly begins it's journey towards a rebuild from the day it is built. A heavier rider can put more stress on the wheel and wear it out sooner than a light rider. In fact light riders can get away with far more imperfections in a build. But almost any modern name brand wheel components can be built into a strong wheel as long as you follow the basics - Decent and Balanced Tension.

36 spokes. Deep rims. Even Tension.

I don't build wheels, but I sure read a lot about it. I am around 225#. I am hard on wheels.

Stop stressing, these folks have been obscenely patient. Build some wheels, see how it goes, learn from your successes and your mistakes. You could have built a set of wheels in all the time you have been thinking and typing about this.

I understand your pain, I want things to come out perfect the first time too. They NEVER do. You know enough to get close though.

Stop typing, reading, and stressing and start building.

With respect.. you and I think a few others misunderstand the reason for this thread.

My intent... was to 'dump it all out so to speak'.. ie, best techniques for durability.. with a focus on NDS tension. After I had an LBS build done.. my problems disappeared. I took up building because it interested me.. and.. had a NDS break late one Saturday afternoon which meant Monday late am at the earliest for a fix. So.. I decided to take it up and learn.

My focus NDS.. seems that is the most problematic group of breaking spokes... espechially for us heavies. Why not learn it right.. starting out. My idea to get all the sage advice out there.. and by and large I believe I have. I intend to write all of this up and lay it out here... which is underway. Let the experienced hands again critique it... newcomers then may find some of it useful.. all in one thread.

I'm 7-8 wheels completed.. a couple I tore down again and reworked for the experience. I'm confident they'll stand up. I rode my 48H build for 3 trips but the salt laying on the roads winter here is unreal. I have a winter set in the white so to speak (salt covered).. so I'll wait till spring to get mileage on my personal builds.

A note on that break mentioned above: wheel was near 2800 miles.. one NDS inbound near the head. Yet that 36H wheel barely wobbled... albeit my rear pads setup to wide. I did do my ride.. and the next day too. LBS replaced that spoke.. and no problems since.. around 500 mi ago. Rim was a rebuild also.. I'm very happy with how it's performed.

1st time I see an newbie analyzing everything that much. Follow the advices.

Havent snapped a spoke ever and now I'm 200 pounds. Many times broken spokes are because of lack of tension, but too much tension in my opinion is bad also, you have a range to work with.

"but too much tension in my opinion is bad also, you have a range to work with." writes ultraman6970.

Had my LBS guy look over one of my first builds for tension.... it was tight.. very. Seem to remember the figure 270 being referenced.. which is 25 Park in 14g spokes. He advised I was about a 1/4 turn too tight.. noting he built a rim for a BMX or XC guy that broke spokes right from the start... in that tension range Who knows.. the kid riding coulda been the reason... someone with many times the power I get into a wheel. Or tough country... dunno. Or.. other build components and assembly.

But from my albeit green view lacking experience.... I can see too much tension vs what the rim is made for. I think of it this way: like firemen catching a jumper with their tarp (whatever those are called)... the GIVE when the person hits absorbs the shock.. good outcome. Imagine a tight surface to land on... the spoked wheel I think of that way. Firm and within stress limits.. not so close to the rim's max tension.. gives some with the shocks. Too tight.. the rim is near it's tension potential.. then the shock hits. Has to be harder on the whole unit...

One caveat... per my idea. I have not built any of the new deep V rims.. dunno what the tension ratings are.. possibly their made for 135+ KgF range. But seems to me.. tight enough to keep them from rattling loose.. not so tight as to over stress the metal of the spoke hole.

That doesn't make sense at all. Do you use a Park Tension Meter? the accompanying chart shows 14g or 2mm spokes are at 121kgf at 24 on their tool. Most rims I have seen spec 110 - 135. You must have heard wrong I don't know if the spoke wrench could even turn a nipple without rounding it right off at 270.

This is why double butted spokes are used. That shock has to be absorbed. If you leave the tension a bit lower to help deal with the stresses, the elbow of the spoke will absorb the shocks and will fatigue over time. The idea is that there will be shocks and stresses in the assembly. when you provide direction for those stresses, they are more controlled. By using spokes that are thinner in the center section of the main shaft, you are allowing that stress to be absorbed by an region of the spoke not prone to breakage and thus protecting the elbow.

You mean "offer symetrical offset multi-gear rear wheel builds"?

(All wheels are either dished - or not dished...)

=8-)

Whether something is worth the dollars or not is obviously a matter of opinion. However the technical merits of DB spokes isn't. They are clearly superior, building more durable wheels at lower weight. One thing to keep in mind is that the sheer (the direction of stress where it leaves the hub) yield strength of most steels is about 80% of the tensile yield. So using non-butted spokes is like using a towing chain with one link only 80% as strong as the others. As the say, a chain is only as strong as....

This has already been tried, and rejected. As you suspect, he total flange separation proved inadequate for decent lateral strength.

If you want to build yourself a decent pair of wheels, distilling them opinions on forums is one way to gain some insight. The other, arguably better way, is to look at and emulate top quality wheel building practices which have evolved and become generally accepted over decades.

On breaking the NDS spoke, I suspect there may have been a flaw
in the wire used to form the spoke.

even if tensioned and trued ..
Given the miles of wire used to make spokes, not all of it can be flawlessly perfect.

The process of forming spokes effectively rules out flawed wire, which wouldn't survive the process. Also the odds of random flaws consistently ending up at elbows, and those flawed spokes being used on the left flange are staggering.

Spokes break at the elbow because that's where the strength is least and flex greatest. It surprises folks that the less stressed left side spokes break more frequently, but that's what happens, for a variety of reasons.

Ooops..wrong scale.. or a chg to one in stride. 270 reference was lbs of force.. not KgF. Yes.. 270 KgF would be.. tight .

I'll just remain a skeptic on butted.. unless maybe a 2.3/2.0. A variety of reasons.. one of which is the cost too. I'll accept that many with experience are sold on them... and they work for their applications. But the weight issue isn't one with me.. and in this case I am not trying to please a buyer.

Per that broken spoke.. don't misunderstand.. wasn't sweating it a-tall.
Has to happen sometimes........... once in 3000+ isn't bad IMO.

Clarity.. and some depth in some of these issues is the goal. I found little in the two books... per the 'how to get this done' step to step. Again as mentioned.. knowledge is one thing and getting it down on paper is quite another. No critique meant.... just writing is another skill set.

There's really no reason for the manufacturers to make a symetrical rear axle bike at a reasonable cost. So little market I'd guess... yet I am still amazed people spend over 4 figures for a bike and then go wheel shopping. Then it'd take what... welding the frame set for around a 140-145 mm width.. add a 25 cent spacer left.. and crank the tension equal on both sides. Seems to me the concept would be a decent marketing item... which is all bike companies are now anyway... marketing entities. Or as I called it 40 some yrs ago.. 'hype and hairspray'.

If they break in the middle...

:In the interest >>>>>>>.

I believe there's a Surly frame with an assymetric rear dropout offset, which allows the use of a wheel with the rim centered between the flanges rather than between the locknuts.
If that kind of thing floats your boat it's easily enough recreated by cold setting pretty much any old steel frame, and then tweaking the dish to match.
But I've said it before in wheel building discussions here,from the commercial aspect the money (usually) isn't in building the best wheels possible, it's in building a wheel that's good enough, as fast as possible.

And for that 3X, straight gauge, decently tensioned, is hard to beat.

Myself.. I wouldn't try a coldset. I spread mine to get the 130 mm width in. Minor hassle each time... but easily doable.

I've heard a few incidents of frames getting off center.. etc... cold setting. I'm sure it can be done.. just I figure what will go wrong.. will for me. I have a toss out frame sitting here.. I might experiment with that one. IMO.. a symetrical rear in one of these comfort bikes geared to the heavy rider would be a sound marketing stradegy... IF.. a company would stick with the model and allow a reputation to develop. But then the kids so often roaming the sales floor peddling bikes likely wouldn't move it. Most of them couldn't sell life jackets to people bobbing in high seas.........

Check to the $$ game in marketing wheels. Keeps the coins moving in the economy... though.

[analogy meets reality]
USCG does a good job of making sure that doesn't happen, protecting your average fool from themselves,
thru inspections for meeting the PFD per capita requirement..
likely the same on the inland sea, the Great Lakes...

off center cold setting is a careful workmanship issue,
FWIW, new steel high end frames are checked on alignment table .
and cold set till meeting spec ...

precision increases with the tools you have to measure with..