My kingdom for a spoke
10-07-15 | 04:52 PM
#1
Thread Starter
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,501
Likes: 995
From: Boston-ish, MA
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
My kingdom for a spoke
a.k.a. a precautionary tale. I broke a spoke on the rear of the Gazelle a few days ago. I'm pretty sure I know why, in fact knew right away after I noticed it.
A year or so ago, when this wheel was on a different bike, the RD threw the chain off the FW to the inside between the FW and spokes. I figured at the time that it might have damaged the spokes, and in retrospect I'm surprised they lasted this long. Fortunately I don't weigh very much and prefer to spin instead of mash uphill.
It's time to replace all eight of them.
It's just one more thing to think about if it ever happens to you.
A year or so ago, when this wheel was on a different bike, the RD threw the chain off the FW to the inside between the FW and spokes. I figured at the time that it might have damaged the spokes, and in retrospect I'm surprised they lasted this long. Fortunately I don't weigh very much and prefer to spin instead of mash uphill.
It's time to replace all eight of them.
It's just one more thing to think about if it ever happens to you.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
10-07-15 | 05:05 PM
#2
Banned
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 6,480
Likes: 450
Oh yes.... I know all about it. 
To heck with the purist. After a major chain suck on the LeChampion, I decided to install a modded Sachs / Huret dork disc and revised wide range cog fitted to the Campy Tipo hub. A few of the spokes are just above acceptable to use, and so far holding. I've been riding off-road with it and the rear is taking more abuse than a smooth road.... crossing fingers.
To heck with the purist. After a major chain suck on the LeChampion, I decided to install a modded Sachs / Huret dork disc and revised wide range cog fitted to the Campy Tipo hub. A few of the spokes are just above acceptable to use, and so far holding. I've been riding off-road with it and the rear is taking more abuse than a smooth road.... crossing fingers.
10-13-15 | 07:20 PM
#5
Thrifty Bill
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,645
Likes: 1,109
From: Mans of NC & SW UT Desert
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue X2, 88 Cimarron LE, 1975 Sekai 4000 Professional, 73 Paramount, plus more
One positive aspect of the dork disks we all remove (including me). I've seen this spoke damage on several bikes I have picked up.
10-14-15 | 08:46 AM
#6
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,368
Likes: 5,254
From: Central Virginia
Bikes: Numerous
Sounds like you got good mileage after the initial injury.
A few years ago I had the odd misfortune of having a squirrel trying to jump through my front wheel at about 20 mph. Fortunately no crash, but ended up with a bent spoke and squirrel parts all over me and the bike. The Campy Proton wheel otherwise weathered the incident like a champ, stayed in true, and I finished the ride, albeit without any more drinks from my water bottle.
The spoke is a weird straight pull spoke so while waiting for the new one to arrive I went for a ride a couple of days later and the spoke broke. Lesson learned. Even back then I had extra bikes and wheels and I still don't know why I just didn't ride another.
A few years ago I had the odd misfortune of having a squirrel trying to jump through my front wheel at about 20 mph. Fortunately no crash, but ended up with a bent spoke and squirrel parts all over me and the bike. The Campy Proton wheel otherwise weathered the incident like a champ, stayed in true, and I finished the ride, albeit without any more drinks from my water bottle.
The spoke is a weird straight pull spoke so while waiting for the new one to arrive I went for a ride a couple of days later and the spoke broke. Lesson learned. Even back then I had extra bikes and wheels and I still don't know why I just didn't ride another.
Last edited by Spaghetti Legs; 10-14-15 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Damm you autocorrect!
10-14-15 | 09:31 AM
#8
aka Tom Reingold
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 44,299
Likes: 6,556
From: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
I had a squirrel jump into my rear wheel and spin around and go thump-thump-thump against my frame before falling out. I was on my fixed gear, so it was really scary. He lay on the ground, and I thought he was dead, but then he got up after a minute and walked away. No blood.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
10-14-15 | 09:34 AM
#9
Thread Starter
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,501
Likes: 995
From: Boston-ish, MA
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
On looking at that photo I realized that the broken spoke was a leading spoke (as are all the outer spokes - it's something I rarely think about except when I'm building a wheel). So it carries no driving load from pedaling. That means it wouldn't matter whether I mash or spin up hills, and in any case the driving load is determined by the acceleration (combined inertial and against gravity) at any given time regardless of the gearing and spin rate which accomplishes it. This spoke broke from its share of the vertical load. (How that mechanism works is a different discussion.)
This leads me to wonder whether the trailing spokes should be strung head-in or head-out. I've been stringing them head-out because that's how I've seen it said and done. But since trailing spokes are more likely to break, putting them head-in makes them easier to replace because there is no problem feeding them through the other spokes. (I recall reading that Faliero Masi always wanted them head-in. Maybe that's why.)
On the other hand, the difference in lateral offset between the inside and the outside of the flange means the outer spokes provide subtly more triangulation for wheel stability. Head-in would mean adding the driving load to that triangulation load. It would also mean that when one breaks the wheel's stability suffers slightly more. That's two good arguments for having the trailing spokes head-out.
FWIW, earlier this week I replaced all eight outer DS spokes on that wheel with the same type (Wheelsmith DB14 which are 2.0mm x 1.7mm x 2.0mm) and rode it to work today. One section of the route has been ground up for repaving so the the ride was, shall we say, buzzy. The wheel seems to have held up nicely.
This leads me to wonder whether the trailing spokes should be strung head-in or head-out. I've been stringing them head-out because that's how I've seen it said and done. But since trailing spokes are more likely to break, putting them head-in makes them easier to replace because there is no problem feeding them through the other spokes. (I recall reading that Faliero Masi always wanted them head-in. Maybe that's why.)
On the other hand, the difference in lateral offset between the inside and the outside of the flange means the outer spokes provide subtly more triangulation for wheel stability. Head-in would mean adding the driving load to that triangulation load. It would also mean that when one breaks the wheel's stability suffers slightly more. That's two good arguments for having the trailing spokes head-out.
FWIW, earlier this week I replaced all eight outer DS spokes on that wheel with the same type (Wheelsmith DB14 which are 2.0mm x 1.7mm x 2.0mm) and rode it to work today. One section of the route has been ground up for repaving so the the ride was, shall we say, buzzy. The wheel seems to have held up nicely.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
10-14-15 | 09:39 AM
#10
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,454
Likes: 910
From: Connecticut
Bikes: are fun!
^Weird squirrel incidents.
I've had a squirrel run under me while riding at a decent clip. He cleared my feet and both wheels as he ran between them - lucky bastid. I did brake ahead of time when I saw the squirrel bouncing between decisions on where to run to, that surely helped us both. I'm glad he didn't try to chew my spokes.
I've had a squirrel run under me while riding at a decent clip. He cleared my feet and both wheels as he ran between them - lucky bastid. I did brake ahead of time when I saw the squirrel bouncing between decisions on where to run to, that surely helped us both. I'm glad he didn't try to chew my spokes.
10-14-15 | 11:36 AM
#11
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,315
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From: Tixkokob, Yucatán, México
Bikes: 79 Trek 930, 80 Trek 414, 84 Schwinn Letour Luxe (coupled), 92 Schwinn Paramount PDG 5
You must be an engineer, Jim. I never ever think about leading or trailing spokes, especially when I'm building a wheel. Pulling spokes, pushing spokes, etc. I also use spoke protectors on all my bikes and a noggin protector on my head. Mistakes happen. But then I'm a bit of a contrarian, a fred if you will.
10-14-15 | 11:58 AM
#12
aka Tom Reingold
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 44,299
Likes: 6,556
From: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Do the pulling spokes really suffer from more fatigue? Fatigue comes from the tightening-loosening cycle, right? Don't the two types of spokes suffer from the same cycle but in reverse order?
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
10-14-15 | 12:06 PM
#13
Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 10,106
Likes: 2,762
From: Fredericksburg, Va
Bikes: ? Proteous, '65 Frejus TDF, '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Veneto, '88 De Rosa Pro, '89 Pinarello Montello, 'Litespeed Catalyst'94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster
[QUOTE=jimmuller;18241128]On looking at that photo I realized that the broken spoke was a leading spoke (as are all the outer spokes - it's something I rarely think about except when I'm building a wheel). So it carries no driving load from pedaling. That means it wouldn't matter whether I mash or spin up hills, and in any case the driving load is determined by the acceleration (combined inertial and against gravity) at any given time regardless of the gearing and spin rate which accomplishes it. This spoke broke from its share of the vertical load. (How that mechanism works is a different discussion.)
This leads me to wonder whether the trailing spokes should be strung head-in or head-out. I've been stringing them head-out because that's how I've seen it said and done. But since trailing spokes are more likely to break, putting them head-in makes them easier to replace because there is no problem feeding them through the other spokes. (I recall reading that Faliero Masi always wanted them head-in. Maybe that's why.)
On the other hand, the difference in lateral offset between the inside and the outside of the flange means the outer spokes provide subtly more triangulation for wheel stability. Head-in would mean adding the driving load to that triangulation load. It would also mean that when one breaks the wheel's stability suffers slightly more. That's two good arguments for having the trailing spokes head-out.[QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly when I saw the picture!
This leads me to wonder whether the trailing spokes should be strung head-in or head-out. I've been stringing them head-out because that's how I've seen it said and done. But since trailing spokes are more likely to break, putting them head-in makes them easier to replace because there is no problem feeding them through the other spokes. (I recall reading that Faliero Masi always wanted them head-in. Maybe that's why.)
On the other hand, the difference in lateral offset between the inside and the outside of the flange means the outer spokes provide subtly more triangulation for wheel stability. Head-in would mean adding the driving load to that triangulation load. It would also mean that when one breaks the wheel's stability suffers slightly more. That's two good arguments for having the trailing spokes head-out.[QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly when I saw the picture!
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Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
10-14-15 | 12:07 PM
#14
Senior Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 10,106
Likes: 2,762
From: Fredericksburg, Va
Bikes: ? Proteous, '65 Frejus TDF, '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Veneto, '88 De Rosa Pro, '89 Pinarello Montello, 'Litespeed Catalyst'94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster
Not
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
10-14-15 | 01:31 PM
#15
Thread Starter
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,501
Likes: 995
From: Boston-ish, MA
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
You are right, they wouldn't suffer more from fatigue. However they do experience higher peak tension. Trailing spokes break more often than leading spokes and this would be why.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
10-14-15 | 02:30 PM
#16
Bike Butcher of Portland
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 12,486
Likes: 8,054
From: Portland, OR
Bikes: It's complicated.
On looking at that photo I realized that the broken spoke was a leading spoke (as are all the outer spokes - it's something I rarely think about except when I'm building a wheel). So it carries no driving load from pedaling.
This leads me to wonder whether the trailing spokes should be strung head-in or head-out. I've been stringing them head-out because that's how I've seen it said and done. But since trailing spokes are more likely to break, putting them head-in makes them easier to replace because there is no problem feeding them through the other spokes. (I recall reading that Faliero Masi always wanted them head-in. Maybe that's why.)
On the other hand, the difference in lateral offset between the inside and the outside of the flange means the outer spokes provide subtly more triangulation for wheel stability. Head-in would mean adding the driving load to that triangulation load. It would also mean that when one breaks the wheel's stability suffers slightly more. That's two good arguments for having the trailing spokes head-out.
This leads me to wonder whether the trailing spokes should be strung head-in or head-out. I've been stringing them head-out because that's how I've seen it said and done. But since trailing spokes are more likely to break, putting them head-in makes them easier to replace because there is no problem feeding them through the other spokes. (I recall reading that Faliero Masi always wanted them head-in. Maybe that's why.)
On the other hand, the difference in lateral offset between the inside and the outside of the flange means the outer spokes provide subtly more triangulation for wheel stability. Head-in would mean adding the driving load to that triangulation load. It would also mean that when one breaks the wheel's stability suffers slightly more. That's two good arguments for having the trailing spokes head-out.
Disc brakes change the equation.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
10-14-15 | 02:48 PM
#17
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,368
Likes: 5,254
From: Central Virginia
Bikes: Numerous
I had a squirrel jump into my rear wheel and spin around and go thump-thump-thump against my frame before falling out. I was on my fixed gear, so it was really scary. He lay on the ground, and I thought he was dead, but then he got up after a minute and walked away. No blood.
10-14-15 | 02:58 PM
#18
aka Tom Reingold
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 44,299
Likes: 6,556
From: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
We have black mutant squirrels in the Bronx where I work and nearby in upper Manhattan. They look nice.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
10-14-15 | 03:46 PM
#20
Senior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 2,617
Likes: 10
From: Richmond VA area
Bikes: '00 Koga Miyata Full Pro Oval Road bike.
Not on topic but I guess I'll throw in my squirrel story too. I had one run right into the side of my front wheel's rim when I was cruising along pretty fast a few years ago. He bounced off and ran the other way, but it scared me pretty good. I'm always on the lookout now for squirrels when I ride, lol. Of course you cant really predict/prevent things like that.
10-14-15 | 04:16 PM
#21
Banned.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,816
Likes: 29
From: on the beach
Bikes: '73 falcon sr, '76 grand record, '84 davidson
re: post 9 ... here's sheldon on the subject:
Originally Posted by sheldon brown
Which Side of the Flange?
Derailer rear wheels should be laced with the trailing spokes running up along the inside of the flange. There are three reasons for this:
1. The spokes are bent around each other at the outermost crossing. Under drive torque, especially in low gear, the trailing spokes straighten out and the leading spokes bend even more. If the wheel is laced with the trailing spokes on the outside of the flange, the crossing gets pulled outward toward the derailer cage, and in some cases will actually hit against the derailer under load.
2. If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket due to the derailer being mis-adjusted or bent, it is likely to get more seriously jammed between the spokes and the freewheel if the spokes slant so as to wedge the chain inward under load.
3. If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket, it may damage and weaken the spokes it rubs against. Since the trailing spokes are more highly stressed than the leading spokes, it is better to protect them from this type of damage by keeping them inboard.
It really doesn't matter which way you go on the left side, but if you have all the trailing spokes face inward it makes lacing the wheel a bit easier.
* In the case of fixed-gear or coaster-brake wheels, it is better to lace the opposite way, because a derailed chain is more likely to get jammed by backpedaling in these cases.
Note: This is not an important issue! There is a sizable minority of good wheelbuilders who prefer to go the other way around, and good wheels can be built either way.
Derailer rear wheels should be laced with the trailing spokes running up along the inside of the flange. There are three reasons for this:
1. The spokes are bent around each other at the outermost crossing. Under drive torque, especially in low gear, the trailing spokes straighten out and the leading spokes bend even more. If the wheel is laced with the trailing spokes on the outside of the flange, the crossing gets pulled outward toward the derailer cage, and in some cases will actually hit against the derailer under load.
2. If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket due to the derailer being mis-adjusted or bent, it is likely to get more seriously jammed between the spokes and the freewheel if the spokes slant so as to wedge the chain inward under load.
3. If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket, it may damage and weaken the spokes it rubs against. Since the trailing spokes are more highly stressed than the leading spokes, it is better to protect them from this type of damage by keeping them inboard.
It really doesn't matter which way you go on the left side, but if you have all the trailing spokes face inward it makes lacing the wheel a bit easier.
* In the case of fixed-gear or coaster-brake wheels, it is better to lace the opposite way, because a derailed chain is more likely to get jammed by backpedaling in these cases.
Note: This is not an important issue! There is a sizable minority of good wheelbuilders who prefer to go the other way around, and good wheels can be built either way.
10-14-15 | 08:28 PM
#22
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Rhode Island (an obscure suburb of Connecticut)
Bikes: one of each
I guess it happens a lot;
Topic: A Noble Squirrel | MPLS Bike Love
I once saw a squirrel fall about 75 feet out of a tree onto a sidewalk. We all stopped and walked over to it. After a minute it jumped up, flipped over, looked at us all and ran full tilt back up the tree. Tough lil buggars.
Topic: A Noble Squirrel | MPLS Bike Love
I once saw a squirrel fall about 75 feet out of a tree onto a sidewalk. We all stopped and walked over to it. After a minute it jumped up, flipped over, looked at us all and ran full tilt back up the tree. Tough lil buggars.
10-14-15 | 08:38 PM
#23
Thread Starter
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,501
Likes: 995
From: Boston-ish, MA
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
A few months ago on my commute to work a squirrel ran under my bike between the front and rear wheels. Lucky little devil.
Of course it has little to do with those broken spokes other than that it might have caused a few.
Of course it has little to do with those broken spokes other than that it might have caused a few.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
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