Attached is a picture of Ideale saddle that I am thinking of buying to complete my Peugeot rebuild. Being new to leather saddles, I am concerned about the shape of the back - obviously reflecting the previous owner's posterior. Is this an indication of sag or other irreparable wear? Many thanks and kind regards

If it's not comfortable for you, it may never be. You probably won't have much luck getting it back into original shape.

detension the tension bolt, then the saddle goes into a bucket of room temperature water for an hour or two, then remove, pad underneath the leather (which should be more flexible) to achieve the shape you are after.
Lightly strap around to keep the skirt flaps from flaring out as it dries.
Move the straps whilst drying occurs so the leather dries evenly.
No localised artificial heat is needed, nor should be used.
Give it a few days to dry out. Tension the tension bolt and Proofide.

Take some photos at the stages and come back and update the thread.

That's pretty looking.

But if it were me, I wouldn't buy that saddle.
Unless it is a real bargain.

Leather whether old or new will conform to what is sitting on it. After a few weeks/days of riding it will look like your rear. I like used leather as the break in time is much shorter. Leather shouldn't stay out of the box looking. If you want that then use another material. Roger

I agree with Roger on that. To a certain extent. But once a saddle has taken on this look, with the sit bone depressions so pronounced that a ridge is created down the center, it may prove to be uncomfortable to the second user.
My most comfortable saddles have slight sit bone impressions, but the overall profile of the saddle is still pretty close to when it was formed.
I have not tried Big Block's method of soaking the saddle and re-forming it. But I suppose it's worth a try.

It certainly is a pretty saddle. And in seemingly good shape...despite the shape.

I'd be tempted to go for this one, if I was still in the market for a nice saddle.

Though I don't think it NOS, as claimed.

Ideale Model 90 Speciale Competition Vintage Brown Leather Saddle w Flat Rails | eBay

IMO I'd pass for the reasons previously stated. I'll add that a new Brooks saddle can be had fairly cheap when you hit a sale. I bought a new Brooks pro for around $60 bucks back in May. They were 25% off and they were running an additional 25% web sale at the time. Yep, timing is everything. I hit the site out of dumb luck.

I've got about 700 miles on that saddle now and it's getting just about there. I had a Brooks for the better part of 20 years and it got lost in a move. I used to really miss that saddle as it was part of me but now that my new Brooks is almost 100% broken in I'm golden.

Take the time and break in a new one. If you don't lose it you'll get years out of it. That saddle also looks like its better days may be behind it but without handling it I can't tell for sure.

Saddles are a very personal thing, especially all leather saddles like Ideale and Brooks. Would be cool for a commuter or MTN bike though if it is truly cheap...as in around $20 bucks or less.

As a side note, some guys in France are coming out with a new Ideale saddle this Fall. Here's the link:

https://www.victoire-cycles.com/en/ne...e-saddles.html

1. I would definately not put it in water
2. put something like proofhide on it and and ride it.

Yes, that is the basic technique. A few remarks, though.
--you may not need to pad the underneath; once the leather is softened by water, you will be able to press it back to the desired shape with your fingers.
--Be careful with wrapping anything around it, because while the leather is wet it is very easy to leave permanent marks on the top. In my experience you probably don't need to wrap anything around it as it dries; just check on it periodically as it dries, and press it back to the desired shape if necessary.
--The surface of the leather may develop a porous look from being in the water. If this is the case, while the leather is drying, you can burnish it with a hard smooth tool such as a shoe horn, a knife blade or the back of a spoon, which will compress the surface and help restore the polish.

After it has dried, use only enough Proofide to polish the surface.

As Big Block said, do not use heat to accelerate the drying.

In my experience, it is pretty easy to restore the shape of an older leather saddles that has a deeply indented top. But often the leather stretches back to the indented shape after not much riding. If this is the case, repeat the process, but this time DO use heat to accelerate the drying. I have baked saddles in my kitchen oven, going as high as 180 degrees F (which is its lowest setting). This makes the leather quite a bit harder. I do this only as a last resort, to see if the leather can be saved.

Those look pretty nice. If I were in the market for one, though, I'd want a whole lot more information on the leather used.If they are like modern day Brooks saddles, why bother? And at 250 Euros, they better be using the the best 8-9 ounce leather available. And only from the top 1/3rd of the hide, near the spine.
Just my persnickety observation. :>

I've been collecting vintage saddles for a few years now:



So here's some advice, for what it's worth. The less you do to vintage saddles the better. Usually, they have enough oil in them and Brooks Proofhide is good for new saddles but too oily for vintage saddles. Instead, I make a paste from beeswax, carnauba wax and a dash of neatsfoot oil:



If you add to much oil, then the leather becomes rubbery and there's no going back from that. Never soak them in water unless you want to spoil the patina.

As to the Ideale of the OP: the good aspects are that the patina is very nice and the embossings are legible. The bad aspect is that the saddle has been tensioned by a large amount and the sagging. Unless it's going cheap, I would avoid it and even then use it only for riding knowing that it will eventually come adrift.

I once had a saddle that looked like that one.


It got that way by being saturated with rain water and ridden while wet. Ridden wet, the leather stretched and sagged.


I tried to repair the leather with various treatments like Proofhide and Neat's foot oil. Nothing could "unstretch" the leather.


When I tried tensioning the bolt in the nose, it raised a pronounced ridge from the nose to the tail just like the saddle, above.


That saddle is shot. They polished it to make it look nice but it is still shot. Look for another. It's as simple as that.

I've just been looking around at my collection of photos, to see what documentation I could find, of the process of reshaping a saddle.

This is a 'Welcome' saddle, which is identical to an Ideale 39, also known as BIM 39, Norex 39, and various other names.





I soaked it in water, then stuffed newspapers into it to make a temporary last in the correct shape, then wrapped an inner tube around it to hold that shape while it dried.


Unfortunately I can't find any good photos 'after' photos. This is the best I've found:



A couple months ago [MENTION=272749]GordoTrek[/MENTION] sent me an old Brooks saddle, with the idea that I'd put new leather on it, but I thought the original leather was too good to be replaced at this point. I reshaped the leather and sent it back to him. I wonder if he has photos....

I've bought quite a few used leather saddles, with or without a bike attached to it. I found the well-used ones to be the most comfortable. Only time will tell how long they will last, but so far I'm pretty happy. They are the leather arm chairs of cycling. All my regular riders are equiped with an old Brooks, Idéale or Donza these days.

OK so if that first saddle is selling at a fair price for what it is AND you want to put in the work as folks here have described, then perhaps you can get good use out of the saddle.

that saddle is pretty much stretched out, producing the tall ridge.
The only way to fix it is to relax the stretch bolt a bit and lace the sides - then work with the stretch bolt to find where it ought to be


a good leather awl works for shaping the holes, but I've found it best to get the holes started with the smallest drill bit you own

for those that advise against putting the saddle in water....have you ever seen how they form the leather in the first place?

and view from 2m 53 sec

and are you speaking from experience in making saddles?
or working with leather?
I have done a few in the last 7 years starting with this

just wait for it to thoroughly dry before using it.

The reason I suggested letting it soak for longer was the amount of treatment sitting on the surface will probably slow the flow of water into the leather.

What is bad about modern Brooks? And what year would be considered the beginning of the modern era? Serious questions.

because except for the Select and Pro they will all stretch to the point of needing lacing a lot sooner than they used to, and I've heard they're discontinuing the Select

backing up to add the Pro, but the point is, Brooks has changed to make them easier to break in, which pretty much means they're not going to last as long, and even my B17 Special is showing-through frame - it took a lot of stretch bolt this summer.

I never use Proofide on my Brooks saddles - instead I use Obenauff's, which has so much beeswax, it smells like honey.

Hey guys. This is brilliant. Thank you so much for your responses. On balance I think it best to leave it. It is not that cheap. And it has been impaired. I buy the old leather chair argument, but this one seems to need work with uncertain outcome. I will not go for a new one (et certainement pas britannique- mon dieu!) , because I took a lot of trouble getting period French components for the rest of the build. Hence the Ideale. Will just wait until the right one comes along. In fact I have noticed that in every cyclists mind there seems to be the perfect saddle - never to be found in real life. Bit like the perfect partner Thank ou and kind regards, Jens

You're welcome Jens! Good saddles turn up all the time on eBay and there are several excellent French makes which are much more affordable than Ideale. Go to ebay.fr and type "selle cuir" or "selle velo ancien".

Here are Pearl and Henri Gauthier saddles, for example:


Ideale Saddles in good condition tend to command high prices; Japanese collectors seem to prize them. I remember one selling for over 2000 euros a few years back.

My perfect saddle would be a NOS 19'th century B17 - but I'm not even sure leather lasts that long. Here's the best saddle I have:


... which is a 1938 Brooks Swallow.

just buy a brand new Gilles Berthoud leather saddle ... I have the Aravis model with titanium rails fitted on my Surly LHT .... comfy straight out of the box.

probably about the whole period-correct thing.
Rivet makes a fine hammock leather saddle in the US, as well.

That '38 Swallow is really neat!

FWIW, I have tried the water soak treatment mentioned by [MENTION=185335]Big Block[/MENTION], and was pleased with the results. The saddle, an Ideale 90 with alloy rails, was is poor condition and I thought of it as something of a last resort. It's the only one I've done, so I don't consider myself an expert on the topic, but I do feel that I saved a "lost cause" and turned it into a beautiful and still very functional saddle. My saddle did not have the pronounced sit bone indentions from the first post, but it did have a noticeable sag throughout the middle and uneven, flared sides. The saddle leather still shows its age and use, but the leather remains hard and firm and has retained more flat top after the reshaping.

I soaked it in a bucket of water for about an hour and a half, then stuffed rags between the rails and leather to flatten the top, wrapped more rags around the top and taped the rags tightly with duct tape to reform the flared out sides. Then I let it dry slowly over a couple days rotating to dry rags a couple times. Then added a bit of proofhide to finish. I haven't graduated to realsteel's beeswax-carnuba wax-neat's foot oil solution, but I'd like to try that next time I try a saddle restoration.

To rhm's good point, I used smooth cotton rags on the leather top (rather than a knobby bath towel) so as not to leave indentions in the leather.

Before:









After: