fender1

In my experience, there were plenty of issues on Schwinn's side as well. I have had Super Sports and Sports Tourers from the early & middle 70's that have had voids where there was missing brazing material, cable stops attached in a crooked fashion, file marks where the finishing was not complete in addition to rear triangle alignment issues.


Given the consumer demand in the early 70's and the production methods of the era, it is no surprise that many companies suffered from quality control issues. Bashing one company vs. another just seems kind of dumb.

bassogap

not dumb, as i assembled many hundreds of both brands throughout the 70s....and in my personal experience, falcons and raleighs were BY FAR the poorest made bikes.....you didn't notice a difference in assembly times back then?

randyjawa 

You bet that quality control was an issue. An issue that the Europeans and North Americans did not begin to address, until later in the seventies, when business realized that Japan was leading the quality charge and blowing complete industries out of their market share. The motor cycle industry was decimated by the Japanese product, and the big three car makers have been wining about it ever since.

BigChief

Whining? This was deliberate economic policy. Investment was all going into building modern offshore facilities. Of course the under financed Americans and Europeans struggled with quality from their worn out factories and ever rising overhead. I know these people. I lived and worked with them for many years. They were hard workers and not given to whining.

KonAaron Snake 

Don't confuse people with actual fact...it was all the western unions and lazy workers. It had nothing to do with gross failures of management in reading the tea leaves, or investing in infrastructure.

Labor was going to become outsourced anyway...that's what happens in a global economy...but blaming the US worker is a BIG LIE. What killed the US auto industry was the management of the US auto industry...for years they blamed workers. Workers didn't decide to continue doing the same things despite competition. I got fed that "Japanese worker works harder, and more efficiently" BS in high school.

And as much as I love Michael Keaton...screw him for Gung Ho.

ApolloSoyuz1975

To be fair, the Japanese didn't have the problem of run-down factories because our military kind of bombed them into smithereens...
We would also be remiss to note that consumers the world over would - and do - buy goods from any horrible sweatshop as long as the price is right. This might be off on a tangent from Raleigh quality control, though...

KonAaron Snake 

They were working under US/Western production techniques, taught by westerners, designed by westerners and, in the 60s, largely managed by westerners.

There's no magic to this...it's pricing/competition, regulation/taxes, labor rates and production facility. Management competence and commitment plays a role too; IME we have too many managers focused on the financial markets rather than on profit. Our compensation focuses too much on the financial markets. I could also go on a 2 hour rant about how college curriculum focused on thinking, reading and writing was replaced by business (alleged) education that teaches fluff, BS and self aggrandizement.

Nothing makes me happier than watching some hog of a company run by MBAs get annihilated in the market by a new company run by engineers, or entrepreneurs. Except that the MBAs of the bloated hogs are never the ones who pay the price for their incompetence.

ApolloSoyuz1975

Agreed, and it was disastrous for American industry (in particular) that W.E. Deming was laughed out of so many boardrooms before decamping for Japan.

KonAaron Snake 

Darn skippy...but it was those awful American workers. If only they'd done calisthenics in the morning like in Gung Ho.

I could also comment on the states and low end employees who lured US production south with anti-union laws and lower tax rates...only to have the same thing done to them further south. Now they complain about NAFTA.

Smallest violin.

Bandera

"Japanese made products used to be synonymous to 'cheap' and 'poor quality.' It was not until July 1950 when Dr. Edwards Deming (1900-1993) introduced SQC to the Japanese industry audience, using the trademark colored-beads experiment."

"Meanwhile, another learning opportunity was set in motion by the same American GHQ. It was they who arranged Dr. Deming's first visit to Japan"

Deming Influence on Post-war Japanese Quality Development

McArthur's GHQ had a deliberate & profound effect on Japanese industry by inviting the "Father of Quality" E. Deming to lecture on Statistical Quality Control post WWII. "Deliberate economic policy" indeed, by the GHQ.

Be careful of those unintended consequences.....

KonAaron Snake 

Schwinn really is a perfect representative microcosm of US manufacturing.

noglider 

You bet. I remember the ears on the seat lugs (for clamping the seat post) would bend when tightening the seat binder bolt, and I was not overtightening. Damn, that was annoying. They had little defects here and there, often.


@RobbieTunes, don't overhaul the AW hub unless you need to. Most of the time, they thrive on nothing more than occasional oil dropped into the port. And check out the "For the love of English three-speeds" thread, still going strong after several years.

noglider 

How so? American manufacturing failed partly because of bad quality control. That wasn't a problem at Schwinn. Outdated designs, yes. Schwinn also failed because of vertical integration, i.e. manufacturing its own parts while the rest of the world was using generic parts from parts specialists such as Shimano. This is also one of the things that did Raleigh in. To be fair, it started out as a strength long ago, and that turned into a weakness. Vertical integration means good control of your parts supply but it also makes new designs come more slowly.

cb400bill

Hey guys. Great thread on hit and miss Raleigh quality.

But, let's leave the political stuff out of this.

KonAaron Snake 

Hi Tom...nothing is fully applicable, but I think there are a lot of representative moments...

Not pivoting quickly enough towards BMX and MTBs
Not adapting quickly when confronted with euro imports
Labor-manager rancor
Heading south, and ensuing QC
Outsourcing

I actually don't think QC was the primary reason for some of these trends, though it certainly played a role (especially in maintaining share). Many domestic industries simply failed to adjust or adapt to events, and competition on price/exchange rates was also an issue most of the time. Often the QC issue was brought up as losing market share abroad, or failing to penetrate a market, but just as often it was some form of de facto tariff, or trade block.

big chainring 

When I look at a Raleigh or Peugeot from the early 70's I am amazed at the finish quality of these bikes. Flambouyant paint, with additional color accents, chrome fork ends, pinstriping, multiple decals, etc. And this on a UO-8 or Grand Prix that was selling for around $100. Sure there's some brass spatter, or a file mark, a void in the lug or stay fills, but it's all hand built! And at the time of the boom, they were building them as fast as they could. It's my favorite era of bikes. Raleigh was one of the best.

The early to mid 70's was an amazing era in cycling. And all these manufacturers were building frames by hand. And the vast majority were low end models.

Now 45 years later the bikes are still around and serviceable, and downright cheap to purchase.

I still enjoy riding a stock Grand Prix of Super Course. Just great riding bikes. And the Simplex derailleurs everyone hates, just keep on working.

Salamandrine 

I'm also amazed by bikes from this era. Sure there's some rough bits, but it doesn't really detract from them, perhaps it even adds something. It's just a bike after all. It shows a human made it. Even though 3alarmer was probably joking when he called it "artisanal", it kind of is. Raleighs and other bikes from the early and mid 70s had an overall design sense that was IMHO superior to the better finished but uglier bikes that came along in the 80s and later.

big chainring 

Absolutely!

eric1514

I still ride the Raleigh SuperCourse I bought new in 1968. I think a poorly made bike would not have lasted this long and would not have held my interest for almost 50 years. I have other bikes, but that one always puts a smile on my face.

rjhammett

If any of the Raleigh haters have a Team Professional, Professional, International or Competition they are eager to get rid of I will take it. You may as well pass it on to someone that would appreciate it.

noglider 

You just said what I've been afraid to say and didn't know how to say it. Thank you. I've been groping for those words for years.

I love and respect automated perfection of manufacturing. I also love refined artisanal work. The old Raleighs and Peugeots (other than the professional racing models) were neither, but they really are lovable in their own way. I'm more in love with my new work-in-progress International than any other bike, for the time being, anyway.

KonAaron Snake 

That international was actually a pretty nice example as I recall.

noglider 

It's not amazingly gorgeous, but I don't find any flaws on it, either. The ride is luscious. What I really want to say about it is not fit for a family web site.

Prowler 

I pondered this thread yesterday morning as my 76 Professional Mk IV and I glided along a shaded rail trail. What an excellent machine. When I first got it I had little to do and all winter to do it so I stripped the bike all the way down and went over it in great detail - literally with a fine tooth comb. I was cleaning every nook and cranny, checking every dimension and alignment, examining from every angle for anything that needed to be done. I was and still am impressed. Workmanship is excellent, everything checks out OK. Granted, I did not strip the paint so did not confirm the brazing coverage but a visual exam showed no gaps, bubbles, holes, etc.

The only 'flaw' was one tiny bit of excess brass on one of the rear brake bridge flanges. You have to look closely. And the lug lining was 'artisnal' which was AOK as my untrained hand could match that when I relined a few spots. This f/f is now just 40 years old (this is the birthday month). It is one of the last Mark IV's made. The PO rode it hard and I've done 2500 miles. Holding up rather well. I just itch to go ride it again.

OldsCOOL

I always viewed Raleigh as the British Schwinn. Some good, some ok and others were BSO's.