Raleigh Hate
08-18-16, 12:31 PM
#126
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I don't hate Raleigh bicycles but I do challenge the company that builds them. To me, and I have seen a lot of Raleighs, the represent the poorest workmanship that I have run across. Would I ever buy a vintage Raleigh? It would have to be pretty inexpensive and close to top of the line.
That said, even this close to top dog from the Raleigh kennel, sported questionable workmanship. A close look at the International's chrome head tube lugs reveals file marks and rough lug edges - not the sort of thing one would expect from a high end road bicycle. That last comment, of course, is my opinion...
Sadly, the same poor workmanship ran rampant with the lower end models. Nope, no longer interested in a Raleigh although some later model, the Asian examples from the eighties did display better workmanship quality. Gotta hand it to those robots.
In all fairness, though, the sloppy workmanship seemed to be common on other brands also, however; generally, top dogs from other makers did offer more cosmetic appeal.
That said, even this close to top dog from the Raleigh kennel, sported questionable workmanship. A close look at the International's chrome head tube lugs reveals file marks and rough lug edges - not the sort of thing one would expect from a high end road bicycle. That last comment, of course, is my opinion...
Sadly, the same poor workmanship ran rampant with the lower end models. Nope, no longer interested in a Raleigh although some later model, the Asian examples from the eighties did display better workmanship quality. Gotta hand it to those robots.
In all fairness, though, the sloppy workmanship seemed to be common on other brands also, however; generally, top dogs from other makers did offer more cosmetic appeal.
But the ride. Oh, the ride, especially the early 70's vintages.
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08-18-16, 02:42 PM
#127
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This brings up the functionality vs beauty. You can have one without the other, or both if you're willing to pay the price.
Ask anyone who worked as a mechanic on the professional circuit in the 70's and 80's, they'll tell you that there were a lot of file marks and brass blobs on those lugged frames. A pretty sponsor's paint job and you couldn't tell the difference, pre-HDTV. Bob Roll brought his TdF 7-11 team bike into a shop I worked at after he was through riding for the season. Back then, part of your salary might be you got to keep your bike. He wanted to sell it on consignment. Besides all of the touch up paint from crashing several times that season, you could tell that the builder only did a nominal job of cleaning up the lugwork. He loved the way it rode, though.
The workmanship was equivalent of a few Raleigh's I've owned.
Ask anyone who worked as a mechanic on the professional circuit in the 70's and 80's, they'll tell you that there were a lot of file marks and brass blobs on those lugged frames. A pretty sponsor's paint job and you couldn't tell the difference, pre-HDTV. Bob Roll brought his TdF 7-11 team bike into a shop I worked at after he was through riding for the season. Back then, part of your salary might be you got to keep your bike. He wanted to sell it on consignment. Besides all of the touch up paint from crashing several times that season, you could tell that the builder only did a nominal job of cleaning up the lugwork. He loved the way it rode, though.
The workmanship was equivalent of a few Raleigh's I've owned.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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08-18-16, 02:56 PM
#128
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wern't the 7-11 bikes made by ben serotta? i've never heard of any of his frames being sub standard in any way....
08-18-16, 04:26 PM
#129
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I've heard those file marks just create so much friction that they slow you down in the peloton. Far better to stare at your carefully sculpted lugs from the safety of a cafe chair.
08-18-16, 04:51 PM
#130
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The gist of the story is that they got pressured into using some radically thin tubing...I believe made by True Temper. The frames had major problems...something like 20 failures...they blamed Serotta, Serotta blamed them/True Temper...etc.
They moved to Eddy Merckx.
08-18-16, 05:22 PM
#131
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Maybe the water carriers got the apprentice bikes...
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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08-19-16, 11:22 PM
#132
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Andy Hampsten's Raleigh.
Here is a link to Sheldon Brown's page on Raleigh Racing USA Team bikes. Raleigh Racing USA Team Frames. I always thought Raleighs were really cool and I wanted one. But then I found that Connie Carpenter's Raleigh and Andy Hampsten's Raleigh were both made by Marinoni. And of course we all know Fignon's was made by Cyfac. I began to wonder why.
Connie's Raleigh
Here is a link to Sheldon Brown's page on Raleigh Racing USA Team bikes. Raleigh Racing USA Team Frames. I always thought Raleighs were really cool and I wanted one. But then I found that Connie Carpenter's Raleigh and Andy Hampsten's Raleigh were both made by Marinoni. And of course we all know Fignon's was made by Cyfac. I began to wonder why.
Connie's Raleigh
08-20-16, 05:37 AM
#133
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Andy Hampsten's Raleigh.
Here is a link to Sheldon Brown's page on Raleigh Racing USA Team bikes. Raleigh Racing USA Team Frames. I always thought Raleighs were really cool and I wanted one. But then I found that Connie Carpenter's Raleigh and Andy Hampsten's Raleigh were both made by Marinoni. And of course we all know Fignon's was made by Cyfac. I began to wonder why.
Connie's Raleigh
Here is a link to Sheldon Brown's page on Raleigh Racing USA Team bikes. Raleigh Racing USA Team Frames. I always thought Raleighs were really cool and I wanted one. But then I found that Connie Carpenter's Raleigh and Andy Hampsten's Raleigh were both made by Marinoni. And of course we all know Fignon's was made by Cyfac. I began to wonder why.
Connie's Raleigh
Marinoni made one batch.
08-20-16, 06:21 AM
#134
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right, but the Raleighs we're mostly talking about are the $100 Chevys, not the $1500 McLarens.
Raleigh produced the most affordable ride-able bike on the planet all through the bike boom, and they're still ride-able 40-50 years later.
Raleigh produced the most affordable ride-able bike on the planet all through the bike boom, and they're still ride-able 40-50 years later.
08-20-16, 08:19 AM
#135
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The fact that so many of us are riding them 5 or more decades after they were built is a large part of the "steel is real" claim.
Another thing to note is that the two tone paint jobs were/are easy on the eyes. Look closely, sure the semi-sloppy brazing isn't anywhere near the quality of what was coming out of the factories of Miyata, Fuji, Panasonic, Tsunoda, et al just a few years later. From 10 feet away I still find myself swiveling my head around thinking my, what a handsome looking bike.
Fast forward several decades and you can clearly see the influence on the paint jobs at Rivendell - the cream colored panel and head tube on Homer Hilsen's, Sam Hillborne, and Hunqapillar have their origins in the Super Course, Super Sports, and Professional of years gone by.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
08-20-16, 08:55 AM
#136
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Agreed, +2 on Bulldog's reply above.
One thing I try to keep in mind is that with the vintage bicycles, we deal with single bikes at a time, we can be as detail oriented as we have the time and money, to be, about our work on bicycles. These people were working on a production schedule, with the middle to beginnings today's mass production, and of bicycles when you stop to think about it.
Not to try and make excuses for the things mentioned as being found when working on vintage Raleighs, in this thread, but as much as we want things to be spot on, reality tends to be different for this kind of manufacturing. We have better made, more precisely built, bicycles available to us, mostly (BSO from the big box stores not included in any way, form, or fashion.)
Besides, it gives us something to carp about here, and sitting around drinking beers. Goodness knows, we need things to gripe about.
Bill
One thing I try to keep in mind is that with the vintage bicycles, we deal with single bikes at a time, we can be as detail oriented as we have the time and money, to be, about our work on bicycles. These people were working on a production schedule, with the middle to beginnings today's mass production, and of bicycles when you stop to think about it.
Not to try and make excuses for the things mentioned as being found when working on vintage Raleighs, in this thread, but as much as we want things to be spot on, reality tends to be different for this kind of manufacturing. We have better made, more precisely built, bicycles available to us, mostly (BSO from the big box stores not included in any way, form, or fashion.)
Besides, it gives us something to carp about here, and sitting around drinking beers. Goodness knows, we need things to gripe about.
Bill
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I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
08-20-16, 08:55 AM
#137
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The 70s Raleigh pros did have a truly beautiful color way...one of the greats.
08-20-16, 09:17 AM
#138
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Regardless of shortcomings in finish work and QC in Raleighs and other euro makers of the early/mid 70s, they were the best available bikes at the time. Though I'm sure there are exceptions, most Japanese bikes of this period were boat anchors, and the workmanship wasn't any better either. Fancy bikes were beyond me at the time, as I was a little kid, but I distinctly remember the first time I got on a Raleigh 3 speed. It was a total revelation. It seemed to weigh half as much as my brand X Japanese made 3 speed (probably did), the sturmey archer hub worked perfectly (unlike the shimano), and it practically floated up the hills.
08-20-16, 09:24 AM
#139
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I actually just realized that my 1973 competition has seat stays that are brazed to the seat post clamp lug about 2mm off from one another. It makes it so that the wheel is crooked when all the way back in the dropouts. Not a terrible issue since I never noticed it, but still shoddy quality control.
08-20-16, 01:34 PM
#140
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3-speeds (including '40s-'50s Clubman, etc.) were great, Carltons were great, and the rest...meh.
However, one factor in the Raleigh love may be the fact that once you've invested in a few special tools for them (Whitworth wrenches, Raleigh bottom bracket extractor), you feel committed.
However, one factor in the Raleigh love may be the fact that once you've invested in a few special tools for them (Whitworth wrenches, Raleigh bottom bracket extractor), you feel committed.
08-20-16, 02:37 PM
#141
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Love or hate em, at the end of the day Raleigh knew what they were doing and I love em. IMHO they got away with a lot because their design and process were solid as many/most of the frames still are today regardless of finish which on some was very good, some not so much. The Schwinn comparison is a good one for me as I have seen several chrome Paramounts and the finish on the seat lug is all over the place too, some beautiful, some like mine not so and I would think this is where you would try to make it right as it is so visible. So again at the end of the day these survive and thrive quite well as we can see.
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