T-Mar

Maybe he's related to Alex?

SteelCharlie

Sorry, Bob. I should have loaded that with smileys

But what Regina we had in the 60's and 70's was crap and no smiley will change that

I do happen to have an alloy Regina Extra America 13-18 6gear that could use a new home. I'm pretty sure I don't have a use for it.

Big Hugs for All A Ya !!

pastorbobnlnh 

@SteelCharlie thanks for the apology! Much appreciated!

That's the biggest challenge with written on-line forums. Conveying nuance. I always try to err on the side of being overly polite.

BTW, I do agree. A Suntour Perfect or ProCompe is a significant improvement over any Regina of the '60s or 70's. The internal machining of the races, the fit and action of the pawls, and even the way the springs work, is 100 times better than the Regina models of that same era. However, with that said, those who want to run a 100% Italian drive train, don't have many choices.

JohnDThompson 

While that is an effective means of removing a freewheel with damaged slots, the fact that you must first remove the hub axle precludes it from being "easier," at least IMO.

If the remover slots are intact, using a tool with a stabilizing ring, such as the aforementioned Dura-Ace two prong remover, the Bicycle Research CT-1, or the Campagnolo #704 minimizes the chance of damage to the remover slots.

smontanaro 

An observation (expansion on my allusion to having screwed up a Regina FW), and a question.

I wrecked an old Regina (pre-spline) freewheel a couple years ago because I didn't feel like I should have to remove the axle. I have an Eldi tool for these old Reginas, but (I think like the old, common tools from BITD) it requires you to dismantle the hub (remove axle, spacers, lose a few bearings under the workbench, etc). So... I tried a freewheel tool for a SunTour two-pronged FW. Lesson learned. I didn't know about the big-ass easy out trick, so wound up taking it to my LBS and paying hourly rate for Alex to explode the FW.

Now, a question... Will those collared freewheel tools - such as the D-A remover - work without first dismantling the hub? I'm not in front of a suitable example at the moment, but I seem to recall that there isn't much space between the locknut and the freewheel.

Bandera

"Instead of statistical control 100% control is used"

@T-Mar,
Thanks that's the hardest I've laughed in a long time.

Not appreciating ,and/or not understanding, W.E. Deming's model of Statistical Process Control applied to manufacturing doomed Regina and it's Euro ilk as Suntour and Shimano adopted SPC and other Deming process improvements to make and sell higher quality, more functional products for less $.

BTW: Regina FWs, to be polite for Bob were just awful in so many different ways and immediately replaced by ST Perfect, Pro Compe and Winner with full cog board support in our shop "back when".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

JohnDThompson 

Yes, although if you have one of those new-fangled clusters with six or seven cogs, you may have to remove the final cog or two for the collar to seat properly against the freewheel body.

Salamandrine 

I don't understand all this Regina hate. I ran Oro freewheels for more than a decade and never had a problem with one. They lasted a little longer (WRT tooth wear) for me than Suntours did, but I liked those too. Shimano was mostly garbage until 7400 came out around 1985. I don't know how many of you all ride enough to wear out freewheels, and if you don't it's not really a consideration.

I do recall a couple failures with Regina CX freewheels when they came out. They were quiet, but perhaps they skimped on materials. IIRC the main body would crack. I never had a problem with one, but was working after school in an LBS at the time and did most of the repairs that came in, so I had a pretty good idea for what was breaking.

T-Mar

I'm very familiar with Deming's (and Juran's) contributions of rebuilding Japan's post war economy through Quality principles. However, I took a different view of the Regina statement. I believe what we had was a design requirement that exceeded the capabilities of the manufacturing process, as set up for the Extra parts. Rather than creating a new process specifically for Oro freewheels, they "cherry picked' the accepted lots to a tighter tolerance, to get the Oro parts. It was not an uncommon practice.

Bandera

Selecting "the best from the worst" is a recipe to make a mediocre product in an old world "artisanal" method with no real controls of Quality as defined in a PSA environment. Too late perhaps by then for the Euro mfgs to learn, re-imagine, re-tool and re-design processes. Goodbye.

A well designed and controlled manufacturing process reliably produces products that fall within the upper and lower control limits of Quality Control & Quality Assurance. An artisanal process: Not so much.

When we were changing gearing on a Friday night pre-race from straight block Crit FW to RR which would you choose for a quick & no-drama task: Suntour or Regina?

When a 15T cog needed immediate replacement which was available at hand in the shop on a cog board: Suntour or Regina?

As always, suit yourself. We did.

-Bandera

T-Mar

You don't have to disassemble the hub but, as John notes, you may have to remove the outer, overhanging cog, depending on its size. You do have to remove a 12T cog, before you can use the Dura-Ace tool. It doesn't look like you'd have to remove a 13T but I don't have one in my collection. You definitely don't have to remove a 14T cog.

repechage

In the early 70's Regina was still ubiquitous at the races. For a while, Suntour (Perfect) did not have a 13t cog, a 14t was all one could get.
I liked the Suntours for ease of customization but it was one of them that did let me down. One fell apart on my way to a race. I looked down to watch the final dispersion of parts onto the tarmac. No fun. Regina freewheels in the tighter ratios had a center cog that had very little material, every once in a while the cogs would split at the thin section.
I then migrated to Everest freewheels, no cog boards around, but they spun well and were durable.

Obviously for Regina, the bicycle industry was just not that big or profitable as they really did not spend on R&D or tooling for so long. By the time they did retool a bit, indexing with brand specific parameters and patented features - soon to be followed by "free hubs" foretold the end.

qcpmsame 

Too bad that the Euro manufacturers didn't adopt SQC like the Japanese industry did following WWII. I am in agreement with T-mar about what probably done in order to have the Oro line be a higher end product. But, as a Quality Engineer, and long time ASQ member, its a pity the Marshal Plan in Europe didn't include the Deming aspect that produced Japan's quality ethos in manufacturing.

T-Mar

You're preaching to the choir. I'm a Quality Engineer. While I appreciate where you are coming from, it is not an artisan approach if you are picking from quality parts. The Oro philosophy was that people will pay even more for a product that deviates less from nominal. You could consider it selecting "the perfect from the conforming". Of course, even this won't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, if the design is poor.

Bandera

A Sow's Ear indeed the Regina FWs of the '70's were/are a "poor design" w/ antiquated barely Post-WWII poorly controlled manufacturing process and a distinct lack of QC/QA even by early '70's Euro "standards" lagging decades behind Deming processes and STC control requirements.

From the functional choices in Post #36 to see why Regina lost out pre-indexing.
Yep, they sucked.
Resistant to change, bad Quality, lousy shifting, delicate/damaging FW removal, no cog support and expensive = Gone in our shops ASAP.

PS: If you required a 13T top cog "back when" before ST Winner was available an Atom FW would have been fitted: strong, quiet and inexpensive.

-Bandera ex-QC/QA Director

steelbikeguy

I had a Perfect freewheel go through slow self-disassembly too... the cone backed out and I was confused about the "tick, tick, tick" sound.. until the cone fully unscrewed and the bearings all fell out onto the road.

Despite this issue, I really do like the SunTour freewheels.


Steve in Peoria

dadoflam

Steel Charlie - if it saves you any mental anguish the 1972 project is not for a rider but an OCD therapy project started some years ago - to research and build a period correct 1972 Cinelli SC only from NOS parts. I was younger and more foolish when this project started but the OCD hasn't changed any so will see it through to the bitter end. I haven't told the therapist but my latest happy acquisition is a set of NOS '72 hub lock nuts





Therefore my magnanimous service to my fellow cyclists is to reduce potential distress by taking an unused but inherently flawed Regina freewheel out of circulation where it might tempt the unsuspecting and putting it where it cannot cause harm or frustration by becoming stripped, stuck, wobbling or other. Actually I will admit that in my quest to get exactly what I needed (that OCD again) this is the fourth NOS Regina freewheel I now have in the box - so even better

cadillacmike68

Jeez - what a hater. The same goes for bandera.

So, why were all those TDF winners (and indeed most of the pro racing circuit) back in the 60s & 70s running Regina drivetrains?

Huh ???

I don't hear it?

Cat got your tongue?

Right, I thought so...

Road Fan

I can add: cold-setting a frame once (120 to 126) is an accepted practice used since the '70s. But it is inelastic bending and causes some minimal level of internal damage.

Cold-setting twice (126 back to 120) might not be as good an idea, done by an inexperienced tech who goes back and forth a number of times. If the frame is weakened, that damage is permanent.

If you're going to build the frame I'd use a hub with a lengthened axle so it really fits a 126 rear end.

pastorbobnlnh 

Just a guess, but the Regina freewheels the Pros in the TdF rode were not the same as the Regina freewheels that the consumer rode.

pastorbobnlnh 

@jimmuller had this happen to him on a Perfect I had serviced for him. The outer bearing race/retaining ring loosened despite my using a hammer and punch to do the final tightening. I now use Blue Loctite on those threads. It would seem impossible, but it happened.

SteelCharlie

Using the DA puller I've removed some absolutely hopeless looking Reginas, and I mean hopeless.

That was so common an occurrence for a while that I made up a long 10-32 bolt to use instead of the skewer to hold the puller in place. It occurs to me now that mod'ing the puller to allow a stepped nut to grab the end of the axle threads would have been a superior solution. The real comfort is knowing that the chances that I'd need such a thing again is banging right around zero.

SteelCharlie

Those were prolly the "Platinum" model available only on approval

T-Mar

I wouldn't be surprised if there was regular and fairly frequent replacement schedule.

T-Mar

A friend had this happen to her bicycle as we were caught in an unexpected cold rain, on a deserted stretch of back road. There was no traffic, no house in sight and this was long before the days of cell phones. We had no choice but to pick the ball bearings out of the cracks in the pavement with cold, numb fingers. It is one of my worst cycling memories. I was so miserable that I didn't even pay attention to the brand of freewheel.