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B. Carre #2

Old 04-02-19, 05:29 PM
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B. Carre #2

I posted about a really nice B. Carre frameset I got recently (thread). Here's the other one I got.

I could see from the seller's photos that paint had been removed from the downtube near where the shifters would mount. The fork looked suspect but I couldn't really tell. Besides that it looked ok. I figured I would do some frame mods and a repaint as the frame was relatively cheap.

I received the frameset today and inspected it. 121mm rear spacing with Campy dropouts. The brazed-on stop for a clamp-on downtube shifter mount remains despite the removed paint. The seat lug binder ears have been pinched together. The rest of the frame looks good. The fork, on the other hand, is clearly bent back a little bit. The steerer threads are pretty messed up. Removing the headset was somewhat difficult. The top bearing cover was threaded on a little crooked. The lock nut is marked 25.4mm x 24 TPI, even though I'm pretty sure this is a 25mm x 1 French threaded fork, but maybe not?





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Old 04-02-19, 05:34 PM
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Seamed head tube.



Simplex? fork ends

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Old 04-02-19, 06:25 PM
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-----

Fork deformation looks to be all in the blades from what can be seen in the imagery.

Bernard seemed quite fond of Vagner flat toppers around the era this frame was done. That combined with the forkends which do not match the dropouts certainly make the fork appear suspect. As ever, in such matters will gladly defer to our favourite aircraft carrier.

Seamed head tubes are somewhat de rigeur on machines which bear transfers proclaiming them to be eleven tubers.

Have you found a marking on the steerer? Oftimes on French machines which are nominal eleven tubers a NERVOR steerer will be discovered. My Lejeune which bears an eleven tuber Reynolds transfer sports a NERVOR.

Thread damage no biggie. If steerer straight you can have your local Michelangelo "float" some brass onto the damaged area and then rethread. Have enjoyed good results with this procedure.

Shall look forward to following your progress here.

When ready, perhaps you can share with us your build plans.

-----

Last edited by juvela; 04-02-19 at 06:30 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 04-02-19, 08:47 PM
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@juvela

Yes, both blades are bent back but the right blade is bent back further than the left. I didn't look closely at the steerer for a marking yet. The bike is at my workshop but I will inspect further tomorrow. Yes, I've seen a lot of Carre frames with the Vagner crown but like you I would have expected Campag fork ends. Perhaps @CV-6 or @verktyg can share some insight (which one of these is the "aircraft carrier"? ).

The steerer is indeed straight. I will do the brazing repair myself (I am a welder by trade) but perhaps take to Andy at the Yellow Jersey to bend the fork blades back as I have no bending jig. I am planning on having him repaint the frame once all my modifications are done so that makes sense. So then the question is do I need to purchase a 25mm x 1 die to rethread the fork or was this originally an 1" x 24 steerer as the lock nut wants me to believe?

The plan is repairs and then some additional braze-ons. I will add cable stops, shifter mounts, perhaps canti studs, and mid-fork eyelets. Wide tires, fenders, front rack. The build will be an eclectic mix of items from various eras. I am toying with the idea of the front shifter mounting behind the seattube, actuating an old top-pull Shimano XTR derailleur I have. And a set of self-energizing Pederson cantilever brakes from the early 90s (same design Suntour licensed from Pederson for their XC Pro rear brake). This might offend some purists but the other "nice" Carre will remain period.
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Old 04-02-19, 09:17 PM
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-----

wrt steerer dimensions -

simple matter to measure OD of steerer and OD of threaded area where the threads are undamaged.

likewise as to the steerer interior's diameter.

frame far too early to be from the time when Gaulic builders began to adopt some ISO standards.

my guess is steerer will prove metric and damage due to someone mounting BSC dimension head fittings.

thanks for sharing your plans.

-----
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Old 04-02-19, 09:41 PM
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Interesting that the headset appeared holding... despite the damaged threads and to my eye, a bulged steerer... Nervor or less
yep, seamed headtubes... I have two of four LeJeunes with them. Bothered me so much I removed the Reynolds transfer way back.

i would go fork shopping. The crown and details are not exceptional, the frame appears of better effort.

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Old 04-03-19, 01:41 AM
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The decals seem to be:
G Derepas
5 rue Paul Cabet, Dijon.
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Old 04-03-19, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Giuanin View Post
The decals seem to be:
G Derepas
5 rue Paul Cabet, Dijon.
Thanks. Probably a Dijon bike shop? I see from some online searching that there is a David Derepas who heads a cycling club in Dijon (Prodialogue). Perhaps there is a relation. I emailed David Derepas to see if he has any information.
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Old 04-03-19, 10:20 AM
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-----

returning now to the realm of dining utensils -

what did seller say is frame tubing?

when you take spoon, er, i mean fork to Mr. Andrew you might ask him to see if he is able to determine blade perpetrator.

if it doth not match frame tubing that would constitute yet another roseate oriflamme.

crown certainly appears a welded model rather than a forged.

---

wrt ocean going landing strip -

https://tinyurl.com/y9pqvtpe

-----
-

Last edited by juvela; 04-03-19 at 10:22 AM. Reason: punctuation
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Old 04-03-19, 10:33 AM
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@juvela Seller's description was poetic but brief.

"B. Carre vintage steel frame
Some scratches and wear
Condition - used, 7.5/10"

After sending pictures of the damage this morning he was nice enough to give a partial refund for the frameset.

I will take a closer look at the fork tonight and start doing some sanding to try to identify the tubing.
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Old 04-03-19, 11:49 AM
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-----

should your investigations incline you to go with a replace-a-mente lemme know the particulars needed and shall check me "files"

-----
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Old 04-05-19, 06:12 AM
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I received a reply from David Derepas after sending him some pictures.

"Bonjour,
Je vous confirme que c'est bien de ma famille Guy Derepas est mon père et c'est lui qui à fabriqué ce cadre, il était fabriquant de cadre dans les années 1975 à 1990

cordialement
David. "

Translation:
"I can confirm it is my family. Guy Derepas is my father and he is the one who made the frame, he was a frame manufacturer from 1975 to 1990.

Thanks
David"
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Old 04-05-19, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Interesting that the headset appeared holding... despite the damaged threads and to my eye, a bulged steerer... Nervor or less
yep, seamed headtubes... I have two of four LeJeunes with them. Bothered me so much I removed the Reynolds transfer way back.

i would go fork shopping. The crown and details are not exceptional, the frame appears of better effort.

I agree that you're in the market for a fork--it's not worth what it would cost for a steerer replacement.
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Old 04-06-19, 04:11 AM
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Munged Steerer Threads & Bent Fork Blades

Originally Posted by TenGrainBread View Post
Yes, both blades are bent back but the right blade is bent back further than the left. I didn't look closely at the steerer for a marking yet. The bike is at my workshop but I will inspect further tomorrow. Yes, I've seen a lot of Carre frames with the Vagner crown but like you I would have expected Campag fork ends. Perhaps @CV-6 or @verktyg can share some insight (which one of these is the "aircraft carrier"? ).

The steerer is indeed straight. I will do the brazing repair myself (I am a welder by trade) but perhaps take to Andy at the Yellow Jersey to bend the fork blades back as I have no bending jig. I am planning on having him repaint the frame once all my modifications are done so that makes sense. So then the question is do I need to purchase a 25mm x 1 die to rethread the fork or was this originally an 1" x 24 steerer as the lock nut wants me to believe?
The blades are bent above the half way point of the taper. I can straighten forks if they are just slightly out of alignment but when they are that messed up that much I take it to a frame builder friend and let him realign them on his jigs (usually takes more than one setup to get the bend and alignment correct).

The stamped steel fork crown would tend to indicate that the blades are not made of an alloy steel like Reynolds or what ever but low strength carbon steel instead. They will move easily on the first bend but will work harden and get tougher to straighten on subsequent efforts.

The easy way to tell the thread is to measure the OD below the damage. Metric threads are 25mm while inch size will be 25.4mm. Campy headset will have the thread size stamped in.

If the steerer is metric 25mm x 1mm and the headset is Brit or Italian that could be the reason for the munged threads. If that's the case, then find some French threaded Campy top pieces or a French threaded headset to use after the threads are repaired.

I've brazed up munged threads before. I used AllState # 11 "Nickel Silver" brazing alloy. There is NO SILVER in that material, it's a Nickel Copper Alloy. The stuff has a low melting temperature but remelt is 1800° F. It's extremely strong and tough but it's not likely to fail. It's a beotch to file.



Seamed head tubes were common up through the 70's even on top quality frames. Many of my pre 1980's frames have gas pipe head tubes - save a few pennies.

Over the past year I've run into some weird issues with steerers on better quality bike boom bikes.

My 1972 Motobecane "all Reynolds 531" French thread frame has a seamed gas pipe head tube and a seamed straight gauge 1" (25.4mm) tube for a steerer. It was threaded 25MM x 1mm. The ID is 22.0mm. The bottom has a split sleeve brazed in for reinforcement.



The headset on the "all Reynolds 531" 1971 Raleigh Competition that I bought last year wouldn't stay adjusted so I pulled the fork. For starters, the threads on the OEM Raleigh headset were waaay oversize. It was sloppy loose on a good fork!

The steerer was made from a seamed 25mm straight gauge tube (on a Brit bike). It appears to have been threaded with a hand die as the 1"-24 threads are not parallel to the tube and are undersize on one side. It too has a split sleeve brazed into the bottom. You can see how undersize the threads are by how loose the 1" lock washer is - red arrow. Also the uneven wall thickness.



I refaced the seamed head tube and fork crown and replaced the the Raleigh headset with a Tange Levin CDS headset with about the same stack height. I jury rigged the whole set up when I reinstalled the fork with some Loctite Quick Metal Retaining Compound and a few layers of aluminum foil to fill the gap. Loctite 660 will fill a gap in cylindrical parts up to .0197" (.5mm) at a shear strength of 2500 psi.



Ideally I should have built up the threads with brazing material and re-threaded the steerer but I was trying to get the bike ready for a ride. If and when the headset comes loose again I'll fix it properly.

Point of all this rambling is that a LOT of bike boom bikes were poorly made and the manufacturers were trying to box them up and push them out the door as fast as possible.

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Old 04-06-19, 07:19 AM
  #15  
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Thanks @verktyg. I have some Cycle Design Fillet Pro silver alloy lying around that I am thinking of trying for the threads. It's very, very strong for silver.

I might also be leaning toward replacing the fork. I am thinking of making a new one. I have a fork brazing fixture that was a gift from a friend and have been wanting to use it.
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Old 04-06-19, 07:44 AM
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Super Vitus Fork


Pretty crazy how much a fork can run, but the one above is reasonable and looks a decent match for your Carré. Your current fork does not do the rest of the frame justice.
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Old 04-06-19, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
Super Vitus Fork


Pretty crazy how much a fork can run, but the one above is reasonable and looks a decent match for your Carré. Your current fork does not do the rest of the frame justice.
-----

+1

AND the steerer on the one Lynn found be plenty long eno'.

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*

Last edited by juvela; 04-06-19 at 03:42 PM. Reason: punctuation
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