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1" threaded headset woes

Old 11-03-20, 03:15 PM
  #1  
rousseau
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1" threaded headset woes

I replaced the scored Miche headset on a new-to-me 1998 Peugeot Competition CP20 frame with a Campagnolo Record headset, and now that I've got the bike built up the steering is stiff and lurching when I get to the sweet spot of tightness on the threaded race. Actually, it keeps lurching when I purposely loosen the race, as well.

Any idea what this could be? I've got the ball retainers on properly (double checked that), so that's not it. I lathered the top of the balls with grease, but not the underside of the retainer. That wouldn't be the reason, would it?

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Old 11-03-20, 04:40 PM
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Any chance you reversed top and bottom cups?
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Old 11-03-20, 04:58 PM
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that is my suspicion too.
Invert the fork, assemble and test.
Much easier than knocking them out.
Be sure to check the cups and crown race for indentations.
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Old 11-03-20, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Any chance you reversed top and bottom cups?
Since the writing on the bottom cup that's been fitted to the top is upside down in the photo, I'd say you're on the money there.
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Old 11-03-20, 06:39 PM
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What the...there's an order to the cups? I had no idea! I will switch them around and report back.
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Old 11-03-20, 06:49 PM
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People used to install Chris King headsets upside down on purpose. I have no idea why. Probably just because they could. For most headsets it won't work.
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Old 11-04-20, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Seanaus View Post
Since the writing on the bottom cup that's been fitted to the top is upside down in the photo, I'd say you're on the money there.
As a good friend used to say "I only had one day of schoolin and that day was singin, so you'll have explain this to me real slow."

Way out here in the woods, I've only seen HS's where the top press-fit in the tube is a cone/race and the bottom is a cup. Bottom cone/race fits onto the fork crown and top cup threads onto the steerer. NO way to reverse them. But are you folks saying there are headsets where both upper and lower cups are press fit into the head tube? So the top cone is threaded onto the steerer. WHY, fear g'sake? Seems life a fine way to get water into the top bearing assembly then, inevitably, the lower.
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Old 11-04-20, 06:01 AM
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Last edited by Seanaus; 11-04-20 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 11-04-20, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
As a good friend used to say "I only had one day of schoolin and that day was singin, so you'll have explain this to me real slow."

Way out here in the woods, I've only seen HS's where the top press-fit in the tube is a cone/race and the bottom is a cup. Bottom cone/race fits onto the fork crown and top cup threads onto the steerer. NO way to reverse them. But are you folks saying there are headsets where both upper and lower cups are press fit into the head tube? So the top cone is threaded onto the steerer. WHY, fear g'sake? Seems life a fine way to get water into the top bearing assembly then, inevitably, the lower.
In rebuilding many bikes, seems that more headsets have both cups press-fit into headtube, but I’ve seen the reverse for the upper pair - cone in headtube and cup threaded on the steerer. Now that I think about it, that’s the arrangement in the lovely Stronglight A9 and other roller bearing HS’s. The water risk mentioned with the upper pressed in cup has never been a problem because the upper cone often has an “over cup” creating a labyrinth seal or similar.
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Old 11-04-20, 04:43 PM
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One way to find out you have the cups switched is to see if you can read the engraved words and/or numbers on the cups,.....without turning your head upside-down.......
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Old 11-04-20, 07:25 PM
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Having poked the cups out and reversed them, I can confirm that that was indeed the problem. The bike now rides just fine.

It's terrific having this wonderful resource to make up for the (many) gaps in my wrenching knowledge!
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Old 11-11-20, 02:51 PM
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Hi, I have a 1" Chris King GripNut with a bit of play when I rock forward and back, even if it's tightened to the point of stiffness while turning. I flipped the fork around to test the cups, but had the same issue. The adjusting ring that screws down above the top cup touches the edges of the top cup before touching the angular bearings on the inside.

The instructions say there will be a little tightness from the dust caps at first, but I think it's contacting more than that. If I tighten the lock nut, will that flare out the thread collet to press against the bearings? I'm pretty sure it's just the adjusting ring that should contact it, but is a little bit too short.

I think to make this work, I would need to sand down one of the cups for more clearance, so the adjusting ring can screw down on the bearing without rubbing the top cup. Does any of this make sense?
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Old 11-11-20, 05:02 PM
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Alright.. I have a mixed headset. The cups are from an older no-logo version and the adjusting ring broke and was replaced with a newer GripNut with collet - the old one is just an adjusting ring and lock ring. It incompatibility is in the angled protrusion that contacts the bearings - it's longer on the old one.

I bought these parts used and the seller thought they would work. I don't see any replacement parts for an old chris king like this one.

I have a Tange Seiki falcon 250c - the adjusting ring looks around the same size as the new Chris King one. I am looking at pics of a FSA Duron, and all these parts look very similar to this headset. Maybe this is really what I have and the only Chris King part is the replacement piece and it's not compatible?

I have pics of all this, but not enough posts yet to upload. Was there ever a Chris King 1" headset with absolutely no logos/markings on it?
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Old 11-11-20, 05:39 PM
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I found a listing on Bike Recyclery for a vintage Chris King 1" 2Nut that looks exactly the same, so scratch the FSA Duron question. Looks like my cups are the vintage 2Nut and the top is for GripNut.

At this point... If I can repair or replace the adjusting ring, I'd have a super rare headset on my hands. Until then I have a broken headset and a few parts for a new one...
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Old 09-25-21, 04:10 AM
  #15  
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Speaking of Duron. I recently picked up a '96 Trek 1400 with an FSA Duron headset, but it's got a mystery plastic washer/seal that doesn't seem to fit anywhere after I broke it down for a refresh. I know...I should've paid attention when I took it apart. It spins fine without, and it doesn't knock or anything, but my brain hurts. Anyway, If you can ID this and or provide any manual scans, it would be of great assistance.

NOTE: Square flats on the top race and locknut. Ball bearings on top, needle bearings on the bottom.

Thanks!

Last edited by th3realmckay; 09-25-21 at 04:47 AM. Reason: added information
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Old 09-25-21, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by th3realmckay View Post
Speaking of Duron. I recently picked up a '96 Trek 1400 with an FSA Duron headset, but it's got a mystery plastic washer/seal that doesn't seem to fit anywhere after I broke it down for a refresh. I know...I should've paid attention when I took it apart. It spins fine without, and it doesn't knock or anything, but my brain hurts. Anyway, If you can ID this and or provide any manual scans, it would be of great assistance.

NOTE: Square flats on the top race and locknut. Ball bearings on top, needle bearings on the bottom.

Thanks!
FSA has an exploded view available for their current Duron X1 1" threaded headset available for download on their website at this link:

https://shop.fullspeedahead.com/en/h...ting/duron-x-1

Scroll down to the section of the page marked "Documentation" and download or view the PDF there. When you can find them, FSA's exploded diagrams are excellent and are very detailed.

Hopefully the design of yours is similar enough to the current Duron X1 that the available diagram will help. Unfortunately, FSA doesn't seem to maintain an online archive of documentation for their older parts (If they do maintain one, I haven't yet found it). So if the design has changed substantially, this won't help.

Last edited by Hondo6; 09-25-21 at 04:58 AM. Reason: Wording change for clarity.
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Old 09-25-21, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6 View Post
FSA has an exploded view available for their current Duron X1 1" threaded headset available for download on their website at this link:

https://shop.fullspeedahead.com/en/h...ting/duron-x-1

Scroll down to the section of the page marked "Documentation" and download or view the PDF there. When you can find them, FSA's exploded diagrams are excellent and are very detailed.

Hopefully the design of yours is similar enough to the current Duron X1 that the available diagram will help. Unfortunately, FSA doesn't seem to maintain an online archive of documentation for their older parts (If they do maintain one, I haven't yet found it). So if the design has changed substantially, this won't help.
I did find that on the website, but it's just not the same as this older version. I emailed them about it, so hopefully they can find the time to help me out. Thanks for looking into it for me. 😊
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Old 09-25-21, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by th3realmckay View Post
I did find that on the website, but it's just not the same as this older version. I emailed them about it, so hopefully they can find the time to help me out. Thanks for looking into it for me. 😊
You're welcome. Wasn't much of a problem to do that - I'd looked at that particular headset for a current build-in-progress, so I thought I remembered that the diagram was available. All I had to do was double-check to make sure my memory was accurate.

That model was my fallback option and based on past experience with FSA products I'm sure it would have worked flawlessly.
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Old 11-13-21, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by th3realmckay View Post
Speaking of Duron. I recently picked up a '96 Trek 1400 with an FSA Duron headset, but it's got a mystery plastic washer/seal that doesn't seem to fit anywhere after I broke it down for a refresh. I know...I should've paid attention when I took it apart. It spins fine without, and it doesn't knock or anything, but my brain hurts. Anyway, If you can ID this and or provide any manual scans, it would be of great assistance.

NOTE: Square flats on the top race and locknut. Ball bearings on top, needle bearings on the bottom.

Thanks!
No luck after contacting FSA about this Duron headset. Since I've ridden without this mystery washer/seal, I've noticed that the headset doesn't spin freely. It isn't binding, but seems to sort of "stick". Anyone else familiar with this headset?
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Old 11-13-21, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by th3realmckay View Post
No luck after contacting FSA about this Duron headset. Since I've ridden without this mystery washer/seal, I've noticed that the headset doesn't spin freely. It isn't binding, but seems to sort of "stick". Anyone else familiar with this headset?
any pics of the plastic bit?
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Old 11-13-21, 04:51 PM
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I've dealt with a few cases where threadless headsets required a very thin shim-spacer on top of the "wedge washer" that fits into the top bearing cartridge.

This keeps the larger-diameter top cap of these headsets from contacting the upper cup or headtube, and also prevents any sealing rings from being pinched down with no clearance.

These are shims, perhaps a half-millimeter thick at most, with a radial thickness of perhaps 4mm, and fit snugly over the steer tube so having an ID of 1-1/8".

These shims are also handy for fine-tuning the spacing between the top of the headset and the top of the steer tube, so that no further cutting or filing of the steerer is needed. These shims never go directly under the top cap with the 6mm hole in it, but rather go between spacers, under the stem or under the headset's large-diameter top cap (the one that sometimes has a cone shape to act as an aesthetic reducer between the OD of the spacers and the OD of the upper headset and/or head tube).

Some headsets and/or complete framesets come with the thin spacer shims, allowing the installer to selection-fit the assembly for smooth steering, good sealing and minimal fine-tuning of the steerer length.
Sometimes I have a built back come back in during break-in and a shim needs to be added to resolve a binding headset where the large-OD upper cap of the headset is suddenly contacting the head tube (because the installed bearings and/or wedge-washer have settled).
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Old 11-13-21, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Schlafen View Post
any pics of the plastic bit?



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Old 11-14-21, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by th3realmckay View Post



Top nut seal maybe?
What does the threaded cup look like inside?
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Old 11-14-21, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Schlafen View Post
Top nut seal maybe?
What does the threaded cup look like inside?
At 30mm, sure isn't the wedge-washer.

It's tall profile suggests that it might fit inside of the large-OD top "cup" or cap, perhaps partially visible upon assembly(???).

I just can't think of where else it might go.
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Old 11-14-21, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
At 30mm, sure isn't the wedge-washer.

It's tall profile suggests that it might fit inside of the large-OD top "cup" or cap, perhaps partially visible upon assembly(???).

I just can't think of where else it might go.
Weather seal for the steel lower ball bearing race also an option.
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