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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 01-11-15, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@dweenk - Well? Did you get it? Is it home? Inquiring minds want to know!
@desconhesido - Yes, start a thread where you can recount your efforts at clean up & rehab of your new beauties. Nice.
The owner has agreed to sell the bike at the price that I offered, so now it is a matter of arranging to pick it up. I'm committed to a family gathering today and the bike is an hour away, so it will probably be Monday or Tuesday before I can get it.
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Old 01-11-15, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by noglider
It was just a matter of time, @Velocivixen, before you discovered that you're dealing with neither metric nor English. It's frustrating. One of the sizes will fit 8mm, the fender bolts. Or maybe it's 9mm. The stem expander bolt, though, is between 11mm and 12mm, and nothing will fit. And Whitworth wrenches are expensive. I don't own any.
Yes you do!

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Old 01-11-15, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
You need one of these:

Yes, I learned all about Whitworth back in high school drafting class. The teacher said, "Nobody really uses this any more, but I have to cover it" He did ride some. I guess he rode a Schwinn.

And I do have this tool! I am very fortunate. When I got the Raleighs back in November, the PO had kept the the original ownership sleeve with the owner's/ maintenance manual, assembly sheet, this tool and another tool. I can't figure out what the other tool is for, however. It's thin and is a sort of elongated shape the resembles a french curve (to me). What is it used for, folks? How many tools did you get with a Raleigh anyway?
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Old 01-11-15, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by desconhecido
OK, here's a couple more pictures of the 1951 Raleigh which I feel confidant, based on the 1948 catalog pages, is a pretty much original Model 22L Sports Light Roadster..
Desconhecido, Here is my 52' Sport as found and far as I can tell is oringinal.With Galvanized spokes and has remnants of the original hand grips and saddle.The grips match the ones Nlerner posted in post #5777 .



Truly amazing how well they clean up....

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Old 01-11-15, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
You need one of these:

Thanks for all the info folks! What is that called, Neal?
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Old 01-11-15, 01:19 PM
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Joel, there's a link to one on eBay in my original post. I've seen them called all sorts of things: Raleigh wrenches? Last one I found was at a used tool shop in Ellsworth, ME. Cost 25 cents!
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Old 01-11-15, 01:51 PM
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So I've just read up on Whitworth. Interesting.


Problem- Front rim has what I think is a "blip" directly across from the valve hole, where both sides of the rim flare out laterally. I think it may be where the rim was welded together. Any quick fix I can do without specialty tools?

As as an aside I called my favorite local wheel builder & rebuild of rear wheel using CR18 with 40 spokes would run $112. Not saying I'm gonna run out and have wheels built, but I will take a 3 day wheel building class eventually so the rear wheel would be a good one to do for the class.
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Old 01-11-15, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
It was just a matter of time, @Velocivixen, before you discovered that you're dealing with neither metric nor English. It's frustrating. One of the sizes will fit 8mm, the fender bolts. Or maybe it's 9mm. The stem expander bolt, though, is between 11mm and 12mm, and nothing will fit. And Whitworth wrenches are expensive. I don't own any.
They're not that bad. Buy a set from India on eBay: Everest Whitworth BSW British 7 PC Open End Wrench British Standard English Tool | eBay
or Rolson Whitworth Combination Wrench Set BSW British Standard UK Triumph BSA Tool | eBay

I can't remember off the top of my head what sizes I use.
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Old 01-11-15, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
So I've just read up on Whitworth. Interesting.


Problem- Front rim has what I think is a "blip" directly across from the valve hole, where both sides of the rim flare out laterally. I think it may be where the rim was welded together. Any quick fix I can do without specialty tools?

As as an aside I called my favorite local wheel builder & rebuild of rear wheel using CR18 with 40 spokes would run $112. Not saying I'm gonna run out and have wheels built, but I will take a 3 day wheel building class eventually so the rear wheel would be a good one to do for the class.
It's probably the joint where it's welded together. I've been messing with a number of older wheels with steel rims lately. Rebuilt my next door neighbors "Japanese racer" for him as a Christmas gift and had hell with the rear wheel. A couple others were not as bad but still frustrating. None of them is nearly as close to being round as I'd like and all of them have flaws at the weld. For me, I'd rather build a CR18 rimmed wheel from scratch than mess with a screwed up steel rimmed wheel. But, that might just be because I'm a talentless hack. What you do about it depends, I suppose, on how bad it is and whether it's just a perfectionist thing or if it has function implications. If the latter, I'd wait for FDNY's input and then do whatever he says.

Took a class in beginning wood turning today. I was struggling with the high speed steel knives and the instructor handed me a carbide scraping tool. It was like magic. Instructor told me he didn't like the carbide tipped tools because they made even incompetent dilettantes look good. At least he didn't suggest that I find another hobby.

Cr18 with 40 Wheelsmith SS 14 or 15 gauge spokes and nipples probably costs about $50 from Niagara to your door. If I were in the wheel building business and was good at it and had people requesting my services, I don't think I would do it for less than you were quoted. Unless I could get the rim at wholesale and had a spoke cutting machine and make a good profit on the components. If it's a wheel he doesn't build often, he has to spend a good bit of time just measuring and running a spoke calculator. Oh, that's the dynohub isn't it? Probably need two different spoke lengths so buying 50 packs of Wheelsmith spokes probably wouldn't work out.

I doubt if his quote included DB spokes though if it did, it might be a bargain. Personally, I'd go for straight spokes, probably 14 gauge. But, almost everyone here disagrees with me on that.

Personally, I find wheel building (rather than truing steel wheels) satisfying and relaxing. Cheaper than drugs and chances are I won't get arrested.
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Old 01-11-15, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
It was just a matter of time, @Velocivixen, before you discovered that you're dealing with neither metric nor English. It's frustrating. One of the sizes will fit 8mm, the fender bolts. Or maybe it's 9mm. The stem expander bolt, though, is between 11mm and 12mm, and nothing will fit. And Whitworth wrenches are expensive. I don't own any.
You just need a few English adjustable spanners.
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Old 01-11-15, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy
Thanks for all the info folks! What is that called, Neal?
Veeblefetzer.
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Old 01-11-15, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by gna
Those are, ahem, excellent values.

@Velocivixen, I would use a file or a hammer or some other crude tool. I've done this dozens of times. Steel rims can take it. It's really not a big deal.
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Old 01-11-15, 09:11 PM
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Those "King Dick" wrenches are rather interesting.

King Dick UK Whitworth Box End Ring Wrench Set 4 PC British BSW 1 8"w to 9 16"W | eBay

I use a French tool though, called an "English Wrench" I have then in 6", 8", 10" and 12" sizes...

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Old 01-11-15, 10:04 PM
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Snap-on makes some double ended offset box wrenches that are pretty useful on Raleighs. Don't ask about the price though.
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Old 01-11-15, 10:18 PM
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British Fasteners for a little history. Interesting about the Packard-built Merlin ( which powered the P-51 Mustang).

My dad remembers when both Sears Craftsman and Snap-On both made Whitworth tools sets. He goes to a lot of estate sales and always looks for Whitworth tools for me, but no luck so far. I broke down and bought a cheap set, but, hey, they do work.
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Old 01-12-15, 12:19 PM
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Seems to me Whitworth is still around as Rolls uses the sizing on aircraft motors.
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Old 01-12-15, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gna
British Fasteners for a little history. Interesting about the Packard-built Merlin ( which powered the P-51 Mustang).
That was excellent reading.
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Old 01-12-15, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wahoonc
I don't know if it ever did. They moved the pulley to the bottom of the seat tube in the late 70's. I can't recall ever seeing a full sized Raleigh 3 speed with a full length cable. It would cause issues with the shifting. The Twentys and RSW's used full length cable with a clamp on stop on the rear stay.

Aaron
Had a look at my 1968 AMF Hercules. No pulley... so perhaps it is a North American quirk.
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Old 01-12-15, 12:53 PM
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My Glider doesn't have a pulley, either.
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Old 01-12-15, 01:07 PM
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Has anyone upgraded the brake levers and calipers with something that looks the vintage part and has stock fender clearance? The levers rattle sometimes with the play of the lever between the rivets and the brake calipers themselves aren't the best.

I find the stock brakes are pretty terrible with poor lever feel, even with CR18 aluminum rims and kool stop salmon brake pads.
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Old 01-12-15, 01:48 PM
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I hear this complaint a lot, and I don't understand it. My 3-speeds' brakes are as good as on my other bikes. Maybe my hands are stronger than other people's hands?
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Old 01-12-15, 01:59 PM
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Maybe you have alloy rims, Tom (though it appears @Narhay does as well?) My Schwinn Speedster exhibits (shall we say) "interesting" braking performance when wet. I recently swapped out the Schwinn Approved calipers with a pair of Polygons (same thing, I think, just newer and not bent), but the performance is still rather hair raising, even with Kool-Stop pads. I keep meaning to build up a set of CR-18 ISO590 rims to replace the rusty, bumpy, chrome steel "gems" currently on the bike, but other stuff is always closer to the front of the priority/interest queue. Besides, there's nothing like the wet weather braking performance of steel rims as you approach a four-way stop to get your blood pumping in the morning.
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Old 01-12-15, 02:18 PM
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No, I have steel rims, and the brakes become non-brakes when the rims get wet. But in the dry, they work like champs. I do have long hands and a strong grip, though.
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Old 01-12-15, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by adventurepdx
Any for sale? Or free?
Ya know,the 'HOT' Portland market has really really cooled off lately.They are probably worth more in parts than whole but I'd still be upside down.
I do have some Schwinn non three speed frames was thinking of donating.
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Old 01-12-15, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Narhay
Has anyone upgraded the brake levers and calipers with something that looks the vintage part and has stock fender clearance? The levers rattle sometimes with the play of the lever between the rivets and the brake calipers themselves aren't the best.

I find the stock brakes are pretty terrible with poor lever feel, even with CR18 aluminum rims and kool stop salmon brake pads.
A common mistake with many vintage brakes is to set them up with the pads as close to the rim as possible. IMO/IME this is a mistake. You want a bit of a gap, otherwise you will reduce your leverage on the brake pads. Some of it comes from the calipers, some from the brake levers, but in both cases it works better if you have to move the brake lever a bit before you get engagement on the rim.

I first noticed this when working with Campy Deltas and it seems its the same way with the steel calipers on British 3-speeds. So if you have been trying to keep the brake pads really close to the rims, back them off a fair amount and see if you don't stop better.
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