surreal

well, as someone who believes that most bikes are entirely rad, i'm tempted to respond with something like "most of them". But, to be a l'il more fair, i'll go with the original early-80s atlantis. that being said, my 300 isn't entirely rad, but it's at least 66% rad, which is good enough for me. And, i wouldn't trade it for a hillborne, b/c i don't want the sloping toptube or the canti posts.

-rob

irwin7638

I got notice from Rivendell that they would be getting my Hunqapillar frame from the painter and would hopefully be shipping it later this week. I know a lot of people have misgivings about this frame but it is exactly what I was looking for: a stout touring frame which has the clearance to be used off-road on occasion-as compared to the Bombadil, a mountain bike which could be used for touring. I put a more detailed (and somewhat whimsical) explanation of the decision on my blog if you care to read it, but I am really looking forward to it. Being a bigger guy(my best lean weight is #215) I've had a lifetime of riding light frames which feel spongie and flex under pressure and, although mine is smaller and has one top tube, the diagonal tube everybody complains about would not have kept me from buying it. I think it is perfectly sensible for bigger riders. I will be posting info on the build as soon as I get it.

Marc

surreal

congrats, irwin, i hope your bike arrives soon... and that you'll post pics of the frameset prior to the build, with lots of juicy close-ups and "whimsical" opinions about minutiae. i know that probably reads as sarcasm, but it actually isn't.

i feel extremely skeptical about references to the bombadil as a "mountain bike". I've road a bunch of mountain bikes, and several from that point in time when GP got stuck, chronologically: the late 80s. The bombadil is different in every way from every actual mountain bike i've ever laid eyes on: the geometry, the self-conscious attempt to be as heavy-as-possible (there were heavy mtbs since the dawn of time, but none were the result of deliberate additions of weight), and (especially) the tire clearance. For a company that expounds on the virtues of tire clearance at every possible opportunity, they sure forgot about that parameter on the one style of bike that needs it most: the "mountain bike".

The Hunqapillar, on the other hand, seems to be exactly what they promote it as: an overbuilt, go-anywhere touring frame. The Bombadil is, i would argue, the same thing, with slightly more focus on the "overbuilt" and the "anywhere". I'm about to check out your blog, as i am honestly fascinated by the purchase of Rivendells, and what thought process leads to such an occurence.

-rob

ps- to those who wished this thread would die: it might not.

irwin7638

You'll find it more of an emotional kinda thing...sort of.

Marc

Veloria

I was simply unable to ride other roadbikes prior to getting a Rivendell (the frame was a present, so I didn't purchase it per se - but I did say yes to it). The comfort and stability of the bike enabled me to finally learn to ride with drop bars. I've since put 1800 miles on the bike, and none of the vintage roadbikes I have tried since compare to its ride quality. Before I owned the bike, I loved to look at the lugs. Now I hardly notice that aspect, because it's really the ride quality that dominates my experience. I don't like all Riv frames (the Hunq and the new Bombadil are yucky, and the Betty Foy is so-so), but I certainly love my Sam Hillborne.

surreal

Veloria,
i hear ya loud and clear, but this is 1800 miles after the acquisition of your hilsen. (you have a hilsen, right? not a hillborne?) Did you just know that this would be "the road bike" that'd convert you, or did you get an inkling after a test-ride, or...
?

-rob

Veloria

Mine is the Sam Hillborne [review here]. No, I definitely didn't know that I would like it so much. But I kept hearing good things about it, and test rode one several times at Harris Cyclery in 2009. Unlike the vintage roadbikes I'd tried previously, it felt "more comfortable" and "less scary" and "more stable" and "much better over bumps" (I am trying to get into my mindset at the time of trying it). In hindsight, this is probably because of the longer wheelbase and more relaxed angles, as well as good tubing, cushy tires, and comfortable drop bars with aero levers. Whatever it was, I got cozy with drop bars almost immediately on this bike, and the rest was history. I can now ride pretty much anything, including those aggressive vintage bikes that used to scare me, but I still think the ride quality of the Riv is magical - especially on long, hilly rides.

southpawboston

while i don't doubt this to be true, it's not a fair comparison, since the hillborne is designed and built as a 650B tourer, and you have it outfitted with the widest, most comfortable 650B tires. all of your vintage road bikes (past and present) were been designed for narrower 27" or 700C wheels. so it's not a good comparison. my point is that if any of your vintage bikes had been built up as 650B bikes with the same hetres as your hillborne, it may have been a different story. or, if you had gotten a 700c rivendell and built it up with narrow tires, you may not have thought it rode any better than your vintage rides.

KonAaron Snake 

While I agree with what you're saying, and while I don't think frames have pixies dust (except my Sachs!), I'm not sure it matters. A lot of cycling is perception and even if the ride of her Riv could be replicated with other bikes, and I'm sure it could be, the fact that she fell in love with this bike is going to make it feel better to her, and I think that's perfectly valid. It's really no different than a baseball player having a favorite bat, or a plate tradition. I think a lot of us would say our favorite bike is the one that cost the most, or that we most wanted. We expect it to feel better, and to us it feels better.

nikkorod

ugh. I am filing a restraining order against this thread. All Rivendell/GP haters must keep 500ft form all Rivendell owners. Please for the love of GOD let this thread die. If you like Riv. great! If you hate Rive great. Move on already.

KonAaron Snake 

Nikkorod...do you wear a helmet? How do you feel about vehicular cycling?

-holiday76

you guys definitely paid too much for your Rivendells. Also, please put a helmet on and get some SPD pedals.

nikkorod

Yes I wear a helmet, but I am now refusing to use SPD's and toe clips. I have also started riding in cargo shorts and flannels. The use of disc brakes on my tig welded Soma, prevents me from entering the Riv club

I just got rid pf my SPD and toe clips.

KonAaron Snake 

I heard a rumor that Grant Petersen sold Lance Armstrong steroids.

I think i want to buy an Atlantis so that I can make it into a fixie...

nikkorod

Make sure you drew it. Don't want those pesky braze ons hanging off your fixie. Needs a pair of lime green aerospokes to.

mattface 

Just so we're clear, I don't hate Rivendell's I think some of them are really pretty, and some of them are funny looking, and some of them look like they would be very nice bikes and some of them are not my cup of tea, and ALL of them are overpriced.

p.s. bump

Veloria

I agree for the most part, with the small clarification that:
- I have tried Rivendells with 700C wheels and they are still more comfortable than the vintage roadbikes I have tried.
- I have tried a vintage 650B touring bike (just one, mind you), and it was less comfortable than my Rivendell

So there are likely many factors to consider.

But the real issue is: Will your typical female who is "scared of roadbikes" be motivated to take the trouble to research and seek out a vintage 650B touring bike in her exact size that rides as well as a Rivendell? I doubt it. She simply won't be riding. So it is less about making a fair comparison, than about explaining why someone would be motivated to buy a Rivendell, which was what Rob was asking. It is not easy to find a bicycle of equivalent ride quality today for the price. (And no, I don't think Surley and the other names people will throw out there are comparable. )

Are Rivendells overpriced? Sure, to the extent that all modern bikes are overpriced.

Maddox

So depending on how we define "overpriced", we arrive at the conclusion that either (a) Riv's models are not worth the cash, or (b) 'tis the price you pay for a higher-end vintage-styled bike made to your size and specifications without having to wait/search/track-down a used vintage and restore/rebuild it to your needs.'

I don't hate on Riv riders, I just think they have more cash than I have time.

tugrul

+1 You want what you want. Maybe that enhances our perception of a purchase, but our perception is our reality, and not necessarily shared by others.

Things would go smoother around here if people kept this in mind.


I'm also ready to admit some of my whimsical purchases haven't worked out. Which fuels a hesitancy to put down big bucks for a bike, especially with the added dimension of sizing, where I don't have enough experience to be confident.

Little purchases that turn out awesome are great victories.

Out of curiosity, did you want to ride a drop bar bike, and why?

I remember the initial uneasiness. In some mix of rationalizing it away as inexperience and being captivated by the bike, I got through it.

Your post was going so well until this unsubstantiated flammable gem

Veloria

I liked long distance cycling, but found the positioning on upright bikes not optimal for rides over 30 miles. I also have nerve damage in my hands which makes it very difficult to use handlebars with limited hand positions for extended periods of time, so I wanted to take advantage of the versatility drop bars offer. Those were my initial reasons, and I basically wanted a "bike with drop bars for those who fear roadbikes". However, things have changed drastically since then and I am now very comfortable with road cycling. Love my vintage roadbikes, but also love the Riv. In a fire, I would save the Riv.

; ) I had to do my part!

But as I wrote earlier, I did not buy the Riv frame for myself and would never have gotten this bike had my family not given me the frame as a winter holiday gift. Like others, I considered it too expensive, especially given that I wasn't even sure whether I could ride a roadbike at all. But I am very happy to own this bike, and very appreciative of the gift. If ever faced with some absurd scenario where my family were to ask for the money they spent on the frame back, I would find a way to pay for it so that I could keep it. Hope that tangled narrative makes sense.

surreal

veloria,

thanks for the input; it does help quite a bit. i think it's awesome that, chronologically, you're close enough to your prior, less-informed mindstate to recall it well. But, being that you've educated yourself about bikes to such a large degree, you can put your early adult cycling experiences and thoughts into lucid perspective.

Rivendells are expensive in a way that many modern bikes are, but certainly not all. Compared to virtually every steel *production* frame i can think of on the current market, they are quite expensive. Compared to custom steel rides, they are right in the thick of things; as production off-the-peg frames, that makes them terribly overpriced. Comparing them to other production bikes of other materials is sorta appples-to-oranges, but i'm gonna say that i can get a production US-made titanium lynskey for outsourced production steel riv prices. The only similarly overpriced modern bikes i can think of are the various top-of-the-line, typically carbon, racing bikes out there. But that is truly an apples-to-oranges comparison.

If i had a whole lot more money, i'd be tempted to grab a new riv, but i am pretty sure that i'd get a bilenky or a mercian or some other nice steel bike that is actually made by the same firm that's selling it to me. I think that, for me, that's really what things are about when you drop 4 figures on a frameset. How many of those dollars are going to a middle-man? Sure, the guy answering my emails at mercian is not likely to be the guy holding the torch, but when i contacted bilenky about a cargo bike, stephen himself responded to my query.

That being said, if i find a toyo-built atlantis in my size, i'll likely buy it, if i have the $$$ to spare. Tuned one up once; it was very nice.

-rob

irwin7638

This reminds me of talking to the owner of a local TREK dealership, when I mentioned I would be looking for a good touring bike, he immediately informed me that I had no choice but to custom order a titanium frame since (and I quote), "nobody makes touring frames anymore, and a touring frame might get scratched." I guess "nobody" is a collective trade name for Surly, Soma, Trek and two or three dozen other brands including Rivendell.
Oh Yeah, I do wear a helmet, and the Hunqapillar will be getting SPD pedals.

Marc

Veloria

rob -

You are right about the apples to ranges comparison, which is exactly why I prefer not to make comparisons that are misleading. If we could compare lugged steel with touring geometry and proprietary lugwork vs lugged steel with touring geometry and proprietary lugwork, then we could argue about it. But as far as I know, Rivendell's product is currently unique in that respect.

Re Mercian: They are excellent and, dare I say, reasonably priced for custom bikes. But they are very different bicycles than Rivendell. You cannot get a Mercian with the same specs as a Riv unless you custom-geometrise the hell out of their suggested models, which I suspect would double the price.

Re Bilenky: They are excellent, but on a very different price level than my $1K Rivendell frame.

The way I see it, it makes sense to first decide what kind of bike one wants, and then go to a builder or designer (like Rivendell, Mercian designs and sub-contracts to build) that specialises in that type of bicycle.

fender1

I heard that Grant Peterson was the second person on the grassy knoll in Dallas. Someone saw him running from the scene in a first generation Bell helmet and SPD shoes.

MileHighMark

For fun I spec'd a Mercian frame that was similar to what Riv' offers. It was far less costly than most--if not all--of their overseas models.

Mercian doesn't sub-contract their work. All the steel frames are made in house (at least they were when I purchased mine in 2000). Mercian, as a brand, is older than GP of Riv'/Bridgestone fame. When I look at a Mercian, I know it was made by human hands. When I look at a Rivendell frame, I see something that's almost "too perfect," and bordering on "sterile." I also see added details that look like they were added simply because someone was bored and wanted to add something "new." If you're going to be excessive, leave it to Hetchins, as they set the bar many, many years ago.

I, personally, am biased towards the British marques like Mercian, Jackson, Cooper, and Taylor. I grew up admiring those builders' handiwork, and for me, their frames are the ones that have the best blend of old-world charm and present-day functionality.