Good points. I personally like buying or selling, either way. Selling, I take loads of detailed pics and give a full description. By now, I know what to look for in pics, to decide if something's worth buying or not. A great example is vintage Campy pedals: if there's no pic or description of the shape of the dustcaps, there's a reason.

Or how about that guy recently with the early Richard Sachs that had a sizeable dent on the top tube (one photo) and "another on the opposite side just like the one pictured. Also has a few small, inconsequential dents on the seat tube"? That was a scream. I counted five pictures of the headlugs and one picture of the damage. Sure, he posted that "if not satisfied you can return". So what? So I pay money to have it in my hands when a few pictures of the damage is the easiest way?

Jeez, some people... Lying by omission is still lying.

So, if the pics and description aren't representative enough, I simply move on. The only questions I seem to be asking these days are pit-to-pit measurements for jerseys and jackets. Easy to get that kind of info
DD

Here, for the curious, are what my seller described as "minor scratches":







Large chunks of the BB threads are simply gone; the seller had jammed cups in to hide the damage. The rust in the first two photos is also viewable by shining a light into the cable run, and you can see it on the inside of the tube as well. Alas, I lack the equipment to photograph the inside of frame tubing, though if I wind up stuck with the frame I think I'll saw it in half and look inside-- could be instructional.

I didn't take photos of the dents-- as I said before, they are small and cosmetic. These two defects, both undisclosed by the seller, are far more structural.

The idea behind getting me to cancel the transaction was this: on a canceled transaction, no feedback would be left. Also, I believe the complaint would have been negated, and I would have simply been out the money.

I'm glad I didn't send it back w/o a gaurantee-- I'd be out the money, as I think this guy would have made up a story so as not to refund.

I'd call those pictures a case of outright fraud. What a sham. Guy ought to have his yarbles ripped off with a plastic fork...uh..Ok..calm down. This is what bugs me about ebay. People have learned that by obfuscating or keeping their descriptions to "great shape" they can sell third tier goods and, with any luck, no one will be the wiser. You're right D Dude. I consider it dishonest. Caveat emptor, they say, and nowhere is it more true than on ebay. I've sold about six hundred items on ebay. Not one return or dissatisfied buyer. All you have to do is provide great pics that hide nothing and a thorough description, and people are happy. Many of my buyer's feedbacks state "better than the description", and that's the way I like it. Ebay is a minefield. I just walk carefully, but still get burned now and again.

I have a motorcycle shop and we liquidate bankrupt dealer inventory on ebay (as well as buying vintage motorcycle parts for restorations) and we usually have between 400 - 600 items listed. I may be able to give you a little (hard earned) advice.

In general, don't count on Paypal for ANY protection. We have found that they will only cover you for the amount that is currently in the seller's Paypal account. If he swept it out before you submitted a claim with Paypal there may be little recourse. We have out Paypal payments drafted from an Amex card and Amex will go to the mat for you (Paypal, in general, could care less despite the image that they promote).

Be sure that all of your communication goes through Ebay messages. Don't email him directly. This ensures that Ebay can readily access your interaction during the dispute process.

Do NOT cancel the transaction or leave feedback until you have resolved the issue.

Be patient, be professional and neutral in your communication. This will help you if Ebay examines your messages. Above all, be relentless. Don't give up, don't let this crook wear you down.

Ebay is a useful marketplace but I thoroughly despise it as a seller. Far too many corrupt buyers have figured out that they have huge leverage over business sellers and will make false claims for condition or fit or damage. We always offer to take the item back and refund but some buyers want to keep it and get a partial refund. They know that now we cannot leave negative feedback for buyers and that as a seller we can't afford to get negative feedback. We don't ship ANYTHING, either purchases or sales, without insurance, even if the buyer doesn't want to pay for it we will foot the bill to protect us. We are in the process of transitioning nos inventory to Amazon and will soon use Ebay just to unload used parts. Ebay really doesn't care much about the buyer or seller so this is why you have to be polite, firm and relentless in pursuing resolution in this matter.

I despise crooks such as your seller. Best of luck in pursuing justice.

Just open a dispute with paypal and tell them it is not as described and you are returning it.
Give paypal the tracking number and when he signs for the package they will refund everything.
If he refuses to sign then they will still refund your money.
But they won't return your money until you proved the item has been sent and received ( tracking number )
They obviously won't refund you before you send it back because you might not send it.
But open a dispute now and send it back and your money will be returned.

Well said Greg. There is only one problem with your theory, Daveyates. Here at least, the only way to get an actual signature from the recipient is to send it registered mail, which almost no one does. It's way expensive. Ebay and Pay pal recognize Delivery Confirmation but that is not signed for, merely scanned by the mail delivery person when dropped off and the number attached to DC is not a tracking number per se. It shows it was received when you send it and scanned when delivered but I don't think you can actually use it as a tracking system and certainly isn't signed for. I think ebay WILL consider it returned if the Delivery Confirmation number shows it's been delivered, however. Thank goodness I've never had to test it.

+1 As a frequent seller, I have been scammed a few times by buyers as well. Last one complained that the gray shoes I sold were medium gray, rather than silver gray. Of course, I had full size pictures in my listing, give me a break. But a shrewd buyer knows that it is cheaper for the seller to give some consideration (partial refund), rather than take the item back. The only recourse I have had is to block these scammers from future auctions.

i'm quite active on ebay -- do we get to know the seller's ID now ?

Good stuff, Greg. I once sold a totalled car on ebay. I took complete pictures of the damage. I sold it for more than $1,000 ABOVE the blue book value. I was amazed. The buyer planned to race the vehicle, so he didn't need a legal vehicle. He came with a trailer to tow it home. Unbelievable.

It was a Honda Civic, if that counts. It was my wife's car. Civics apparently have some kind of aura. In that car, and in her current Civic, she gets constant offers from strangers on the street. I even got an offer while driving it in its totalled state. So bizarre!

I've noticed that too, Tom. I don't own a Civic but a pal does, 82 or something, and people are always trying to buy it from him. But it's pristine. Strange phenomena.
Kind of like riding around this crowd on a Raleigh International.

I will be leaving a big stinky neg on his feedback the instant I get any sort of confirmation from the bay that my monies are in escrow (or, as another poster pointed out, not in escrow because he cleaned out his account). It will be quite unmistakable, mentioning rust, dents, and stripped threads.

I sorta figured I'd leave it as the last thing I did, a kind of send-off party. Right now, there is no chance for a positive or even neutral.

I'll be okay if I don't get the money back. It will be fun to saw the frame in half, and I'll give what looks okay to some local kids who mash weld up bikes. I'll keep a couple of parts, and view it as a learned lesson. Enough good has happened to me in this hobby over the years-- and enough good will happen in the next year and more-- that I'll view it as just a bump in the road. I never know when I'll find the next yard sale Merckx. But I do think I will be limiting my frame buying to the T-town and Westminster swaps from now on, or locally, where I can assess the frame. Plus I found a really cool stray dog a month ago, best thing ever I found in the trash (really). More than balances a crappy ebuy deal.

I'd rather ship the thing back, though.

Were you at T-town this year at all?

Can't believe I didn't see ya.

Don't give up on Ebay completely. I just bought this Ciocc built Paganini https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT and I'm quite happy with it. There are deals to be had if one's careful.

I probably won't give up completely on the bay; I've gotten a couple of real beauties on the bay in the past. But it'll have to be pretty good, and the more whimsical purchases, like this frame, will be limited to my sight range. But I did get these cheaply on the bay, so I'll keep looking.





Zaphod, I wasnt at T-town either one this year, but I will be in the spring this year and likely the fall as well. I'll be renting a space, or two, perhaps. Dunno yet.

I found the completed auction on ebay. The seller really didn't say much at all about the condition of the frame one way or the other. Lots of fuzzy pictures but none of the rusty spots. That's tuff. The buyer should not have to ask if there are any problems not shown! All problems should be pointed out up front. Unfortunately it happens.

Cool, we had a bunch of C&Vers and went for a nice ride afterwards...can't imagine why we shouldn't do it again in the spring

to me its much more low stress to do these kind of deals in person. You can put your hands on what you're getting immediately and prior to buying, and when the deal is done its done. You both walk away and there's no 3rd party who's gonna try and stick their hand in your wallet if the other guy changes his mind. I've grabbed some great deals at T-town, but I think I may have missed just as many really good ones.

Some sites have a "wall of shame" for scammers, this might be something worth considering to prevent some folks from getting scammed. I'm still working on my damaged purchase and still hoping for a resolution - 1 month and counting.....

i'm not sure why you haven't gone straight for a paypal claim....
Item is "not as described" - let paypal sort it out for you.
And give him negative feedback as a seller - easy!

Poguemahone,

Sorry for the threadjack. A Google LeJeune search brought up your 2005 thread on finding a LeJeune. I also live in the "Capital City" area and recently acquired an old LeJeune. I'm just looking for any info you might have. I have a thread titled "Another Vintage LeJeune To Ponder/Date".
You can respond to that thread so as not to hijack this one anymore.

Thanks in advance.

Update: Ebay wound up refunding all monies. Plus, they paid shipping back, making drop-off easier.

I wound up leaving negative feedback today. I felt nasty about it, but if there had been feedback like the one I just left on his profile I might not have had to go thru a rather unpleasant process. Feedback: "Undisclosed: Rust thru frame, dents, stripped threads. Awful to deal with." I was ready to get a neg back, but someone told me that sellers can no longer neg buyers. I would have gladly taken one in this case.

I'd rather someone else not have to go thru the same teeth pulling process. I'll wager being difficult and accusatory has worked for him in the past. If he'd refunded monies and paid for the return, since the frame was patently not as described, I'dve either not left any or left positive (I figure it's a plus if a seller resolves problems quickly and honestly, rather than blowing smoke at the buyer). Trying to get me to cancel the transaction without a refund in hand was especially nasty, as it would have resulted in no refund and no opportunity to leave feedback.

Hopefully this process is now over, although I suppose I'll hear from the seller about removing feedback eventually.

I was impressed with ebay. In the past it has been a bit of a wild west, and if a seller was dishonest and wanted to rip you off, s/he could.

Good to hear that it all worked out as designed in the end - even down to refunding your return shipping. Cool...

When he asks you to remove your negative, just ask him: "is my feedback factual? Well, then, why would I remove it?" and be done with that little hassle, too. The point of feedback, after all, is to alert those that come after and you did them a service by highlighting the seller's issues in this particular instance.

DD

Poguemahone,

Check the local CL today. There is a Peugeot on there you might be interested in. If not you can put it up on the "are you looking for one of these" threads. Someone might want it.

A: Seller is a jerk, and handled himself accordingly. Please post his username.

B: Under all circumstances, PayPal & eBay will **** the seller. We've had countless discussions about the power a buyer has in these situations. Naturally, in this case, it worked out perfectly.

C: Please - anyone - feel free to make use of my blocked bidder list (and feel free to add to it):

0lmo967, aka, akimbo71, argentum_soccer, bad-cnc-habit, bike_department, bum-deluxe, camacintosh, campyman2005, clysher, collectableguy, daprewitt, davidsea2009, dcskeeler, dollarrons, dreamingon2wheels, elcanada, eviljam, fantaretro, flight2hnd, foul.owl, fsantana, fyrtom, giant19790311, gitane89, gzbikes, j.b.73, jantalick2ucx, jerrymoos, jethro53, jondavis9, junkman852003, kendenny, kittentravel, koldfushen, kool-$kool, lftypjk, macwilliams, melbay*2010, mercurys37, meshach21, mike02155, molteniwhippingby, moonlet9, neisserdoerr, nings_nervex, nomotorjrr, oldsteelmachine, on_golden_wing, owh1919, p6man, p8705, paradigmshiftingrev, pjwod, problems, prof.gyro, propa-gandhi, retro-velo, roadgalatin, rockhopperbiking, rossof355, sbachmkii3.8, shipping, standupmon, steeltube, stsandman1, sweetdealtoday, tamiyakyoshovintage, tryork5ifp, txwindrider, velosite811, velovelocity, wheelsbandit, wide, world, yampdog, 1085610@deleted, 53298338@deleted, starkaj@volcano.net

Cuda, I've had second thoughts about revealing the seller on a public board, but his recent behaviour has made me decide it's really prolly better to let as many folks as possible simply avoid him. Here's the auction:
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160511205354
Today, in my ebay inbox, was second email from this fool, as follows:

"Dear just_tcb_baby,

You are a malevolent liar, on appeal a reverse of the claim was awarded to me by ebay customer support, as when I received the frame back from you it showed that you dismounted scratched and damaged the BB threads and the stem. I will let ebay have the last word on this.


- pepedub"

As far as I can tell, no reverse of the claim was awarded (I certainly have not been informed) and I'm tired of this fool calling me a liar. I reported him to the bay for harrasing emails.

He also left positive feedback (!) on my profile, though it is really a raging neg. You can read it if you'd like.

I am glad it worked out I must have missed this thread when you first posted. I hate dealings like that on Ebay and until late last year I never had so many problems with sellers on ebay trying to pass off junk as Great Condition. I went from never making a claim to making at least 10 between last year and now. I have been on ebay since 1995 or 96 with only a few problems until now and every one I filed against it has cost me no money to return or trash the item in question because I refuse to pay for someone else being untruthful or stupid.
Glenn