Virtues of the Cottered Crank...
10-31-12 | 08:02 PM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 181
Likes: 1
From: Ottawa Ontario
This thread has given me an appreciation for the cranks on my Pug.
The bottom bracket is a little sloppy (bearings?) so i was going to replace everything.
I think I'll try to repair what i have and keep the cottered cranks.
The bottom bracket is a little sloppy (bearings?) so i was going to replace everything.
I think I'll try to repair what i have and keep the cottered cranks.
10-31-12 | 08:38 PM
#27
Other Worldly Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,540
Likes: 139
From: The old Northwest Coast.
Bikes: 1973 Motobecane Grand Jubilee, 1981 Centurion Super LeMans, 2010 Gary Fisher Wahoo, 2003 Colnago Dream Lux, 2014 Giant Defy 1, 2015 Framed Bikes Minnesota 3.0, several older family Treks
Ode to the cotter pin, shear pin and woodruff key!
__________________
Make ******* Grate Cheese Again
Make ******* Grate Cheese Again
11-01-12 | 05:04 AM
#28
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 17,196
Likes: 761
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes: 1980 Masi, 1984 Mondonico, 1984 Trek 610, 1980 Woodrup Giro, 2005 Mondonico Futura Leggera ELOS, 1967 PX10E, 1971 Peugeot UO-8
I'm sure carbon fibers will want to buckle when in compression though they are phenomenal in tension. Problem is how can a slender one be designed to stay together under those loads?
Makes me wonder why a carbon fiber can't be made with a, let's say, 15 mm diameter?
11-01-12 | 07:00 AM
#29
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
From: Armenia, Colombia
Bikes: 1961 Raleigh Sports
No, the spindles are not all the same. There are charts in Sutherland's4th and 5th editions
that list this information in a handy format, which i cannot find to cut and paste right now.
ISO, French, Italian are all nominally 16mm in diameter, 15.9mm actual
English is smaller.....5/8 " diameter, 15.8mm actual
Sometimes you might be able to get away with a swap like this if you use
the correct crank to go with the same spindle.
By far the most vexing thing in swapping these is the various incompatibilities
between cups and spindles, and the different (and seemingly endless) positioning
of the cone shoulders and the flats, as well as the lengths and offsets.
If you can find a copy of Sutherland's to look at (4th, 5th editions) online or
at a bike shop, it explains a lot of this very nicely.
Or you can just measure and experiment. It's unlikely the swap you have in
mind will work, though anything is possible. You'd have to use your Raleigh
cups if they are Raleigh threaded, and the chances of the French spindle and
crank to fit it going in there properly are pretty slender.
that list this information in a handy format, which i cannot find to cut and paste right now.
ISO, French, Italian are all nominally 16mm in diameter, 15.9mm actual
English is smaller.....5/8 " diameter, 15.8mm actual
Sometimes you might be able to get away with a swap like this if you use
the correct crank to go with the same spindle.
By far the most vexing thing in swapping these is the various incompatibilities
between cups and spindles, and the different (and seemingly endless) positioning
of the cone shoulders and the flats, as well as the lengths and offsets.
If you can find a copy of Sutherland's to look at (4th, 5th editions) online or
at a bike shop, it explains a lot of this very nicely.
Or you can just measure and experiment. It's unlikely the swap you have in
mind will work, though anything is possible. You'd have to use your Raleigh
cups if they are Raleigh threaded, and the chances of the French spindle and
crank to fit it going in there properly are pretty slender.
11-01-12 | 12:00 PM
#30
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,994
Likes: 10,496
From: Sacramento, CA
Bikes: old ones
But it ought to work for a little while, and if it makes you happy, feel free.
11-01-12 | 07:20 PM
#32
car guy, recovering
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 9
From: Mount Vernon, NY
Bikes: Olympia Competizione & Special Piuma, Frejus track circa 1958, Dahon Helios, many others
Actually, I think you misunderstand the force dynamics that occur at the spindle/crank interface.
__________________
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
11-01-12 | 07:55 PM
#33
Phyllo-buster
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,263
Likes: 2,688
From: Nova Scotia
Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic
Even more generally, the tolerances between spindles and BB's and cotterpins are fussy even when they're from the same country. Try to use an Bayliss axle in Raleigh cups?
Some enterprising shop rats mechanics do surprise, crossing odd standards with filed and forced cottered shears capped with queer continental cups and it works. Too rarely.
Some enterprising shop rats mechanics do surprise, crossing odd standards with filed and forced cottered shears capped with queer continental cups and it works. Too rarely.
11-02-12 | 04:36 AM
#34
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,565
Likes: 2,739
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, 196? Torpado Professional, 2000 Marinoni Piuma
When I tried to install a Stronglight cottered crank on my Legnano Gran Premio I, the Legnano spindle was just a tad too big. Though it took a while, I managed to clean it up enough to get it to work and work it does. This is how I got that old crank to fit and work like a charm on the Legnano. When I got a second Legnano GP frame, one that actually fits me, I moved the crank over and it is still working perfectly...
Here is the Legnano as it is today. I decided to not paint and just ride the bicycle. I love it!
Here is the Legnano as it is today. I decided to not paint and just ride the bicycle. I love it!
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
11-02-12 | 12:14 PM
#36
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 604
Likes: 115
From: Charlotte, NC
What's the weight penalty for a steel cottered crank vs. alloy? For example, if I went to the trouble and expense of replacing the cottered crank on a 70"s U0-8 with an 80's alloy Sugino crankset, how much weight would I save?
11-02-12 | 04:45 PM
#37
1991 PBP Anciens
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,070
Likes: 1,200
From: Elburn, Illannoy
Bikes: 1964 Dunelt, 196? Dunelt Flyer, 1968 Raleigh Superbe, 1969 Robin Hood, 197? Gitane, 1970 Gitane Mexico, 1973 Raleigh SuperCourse, 1970 Raleigh Sports, 1970 Huffy Sportsman, 1981 Miyata 710, 1990 Miyata 600GT, 1999 Trek 830AL, 2007 Rivendell Bleriot,
How much clearance does the chainring give you compared to the original Raleigh cranks? I want to do something similar with my Raleigh Sports, in order to have replaceable chainrings but keep the cottered crank clearances that thus far have worked well with the chaincase.
BTW, French Durax arms were bored to fit the Raleigh spindle and 9.5 cotters.
11-02-12 | 06:10 PM
#39
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 11,128
Likes: 39
Bikes: 1986 Alan Record Carbonio, 1985 Vitus Plus Carbone 7, 1984 Peugeot PSV, 1972 Line Seeker, 1986(est.) Medici Aerodynamic (Project), 1985(est.) Peugeot PY10FC
I struggled mightily trying to keep cottered cranks on my bikes tight on their spindles when I was a kid....After all the smashed, mushroomed and stripped and stuck cotters I went through (yes, I was just a kid that had only hammers, flat bladed screwdrivers and a big adjustable wrenches available for tools after all....
), I never want to ever deal with them again since I discovered non-cottered cranks in college....
Chombi
), I never want to ever deal with them again since I discovered non-cottered cranks in college....Chombi
11-03-12 | 08:26 AM
#41
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
From: Armenia, Colombia
Bikes: 1961 Raleigh Sports
I'm not sure I really understand the question but I'll give it a shot. Clearances are good for the set up I have. This is a 48T TA ring and I have about a pinky amount of space between the chain ring and the chain stay. As for a chain case, dunno. This frame has a boss for one but it's never had one on my watch.
BTW, French Durax arms were bored to fit the Raleigh spindle and 9.5 cotters.
BTW, French Durax arms were bored to fit the Raleigh spindle and 9.5 cotters.
11-03-12 | 04:26 PM
#42
1991 PBP Anciens
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,070
Likes: 1,200
From: Elburn, Illannoy
Bikes: 1964 Dunelt, 196? Dunelt Flyer, 1968 Raleigh Superbe, 1969 Robin Hood, 197? Gitane, 1970 Gitane Mexico, 1973 Raleigh SuperCourse, 1970 Raleigh Sports, 1970 Huffy Sportsman, 1981 Miyata 710, 1990 Miyata 600GT, 1999 Trek 830AL, 2007 Rivendell Bleriot,
Spark plug tap took care of that.
Last edited by bikamper; 11-03-12 at 04:27 PM. Reason: can't proof read
11-03-12 | 11:48 PM
#43
Keepin it Wheel
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,964
Likes: 5,222
From: San Diego
Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus
This may be a dumb question, but from reading between the lines on this thread, it seems that cottered cranks were thinner because they were steel, not aluminum, is that right? Is it not possible to make elegant, slender steel cranks with a square taper/crank bolt interface to get the best of both worlds?
11-04-12 | 12:38 AM
#45
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: lynnwood, WA
Bikes: AWOL, Stache 7, Keirin Pro
This may be a dumb question, but from reading between the lines on this thread, it seems that cottered cranks were thinner because they were steel, not aluminum, is that right? Is it not possible to make elegant, slender steel cranks with a square taper/crank bolt interface to get the best of both worlds?
Either way I think cottered cranks have there place. I definitely can not agree that they are the best looking but that is all personal opinion.
-Aron
11-04-12 | 08:10 AM
#46
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,568
Likes: 720
From: Port Dover Ontario Canada
Bikes: 1965 Dilecta Le Blanc, 1956 Royal Nord, 1972 Raleigh Sports, 1972 CCM Turismo, 2014 Salsa Vaya, 2019 Giant Lafree and others
Double the vintage charm of cottered cranks! Our 1975-6 Raleigh Sprites in that beautiful metallic emerald green. M'Ladys bike still retains the "R" nut on the pin.
__________________
We are what we reflect. We are the changes that we bring to this world. Ride often. -Geo.-
We are what we reflect. We are the changes that we bring to this world. Ride often. -Geo.-
11-04-12 | 10:07 AM
#47
Old fart
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 26,345
Likes: 5,251
From: Appleton WI
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
I have a set of square taper cranks that are solid steel but they are nothing ornamental. They just came off a lower end bike. So yes it would be possible but I don't think companies are in the market to manufacture steel square taper cranks that weight significantly more than alloy ones.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
bearjew
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
5
08-06-12 09:43 AM
