iab

What don't you understand about showing the differences between top tier and lower tier parts? Are you saying what I showed, the derailleurs and calipers, are the same level? Cause sorry Charlie, they ain't.

And since you seem to be in a real nit-picky mood, relative "rarity" can have an effect on collectability.

iab

The first one has 2 jockey wheels, the second only a single. With only one jockey wheel, the amount of chain wrap is minimal. So much so while you are pedaling, the chain skips across the cogs making very annoying, jerking motion.

Good chain wrap





Bad chain wrap

The Golden Boy 

Oh, so you're saying you're wrong?

Your apologies are accepted.

Drillium Dude 

This.

The thread is designed to help both riders and collectors - much the same as C&V is designed to do. C&V isn't just about collecting. We even have a dedicated "Where Did You Ride Today?" thread (which in my opinion produces some of the most outstanding photographs in this sub-forum).

So, yeah - riders, wrenchers and collectors can learn from this thread; that's what it's designed for. If we post pics/explanations with that in mind everything will be hunky-dory

DD

Drillium Dude 

Another couple of points occured to me:

One - If you're new here and have questions, please ask. The info provided in each post regarding the photos or comments might not be enough to make it clear in your particular head, so ask away. Most everyone here would be more than willing to go into details on the relative merits/demerits of a particular part, frame material, whatever.

Two - Pictures of shoddy workmanship I think should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure the main intention is to show the difference between levels of finish, but also understand that shoddy workmanship can be an indicator of possible failure. It's important that a newbie have the opportunity to see it, be aware of the possible ramifications and then make the call themselves.

Three - It's my intention that damage photos serve to let a newbie know what it looks like so they can negotiate with a seller or walk because they don't want a damaged bike. I'm not making any assumptions about whether or not they can be repaired (in the case of the gold Masi, I knew about it and still bought the bike with the intention of repairing/restoring - but I've been around awhile!). Maybe we can post pics and make suggestions about whether or not certain damage can be repaired?

Just some ideas...

DD

Shp4man

Really, it's all about the original cost of the bicycle. The goal is to get the old, run down, top of the line bike from a seller that doesn't know, or doesn't care about the bike's former glory. Or if you have the cash, you can leave out the "run down" part and just buy a restored bike from fleabay.
Some qualifiers are:
The bike must be cool. This means different things to different people.
To contradict what I posted above, sometimes even lesser bikes are desirable. But they have to be cool. Maybe French.
If it's a road bike, lots of aluminum is good. Except maybe the frame.
Original paint is a big deal. Woe unto him who gets a "cool bike" that's been repainted.
No "turkey levers", "one piece cranks" or "stem shifters".

And no matter what, it's probably not worth what you think it is...

LuckyChow99

This thread has been very helpful to me. I never knew that the thin cracks on paint was an indication that the tube had been tweaked. Makes perfect sense, but I've never seen one, so I didn't know about it. This is something I'll watch going forward.

I just love learning from experienced people. There is no substitute for experience. Sometimes the smallest details are hugely important but are missed by the inexperienced eye. To all of you that have years of bike experience and knowledge, my hat is off to you! Please know that I appreciate the time it takes for you to post your photos and explanations.

Thumpic

Stuck seat post.........

There are EXACTLY 1743 threads about stuck seat posts. A noobie should avoid this at all costs. They will try your patience, intellect, wallet and vocabulary. Before you buy, be sure that you can adjust the seat post. A stuck post is also a pretty good indicator of an uncared for bike that will need more than just a postectomy.

jimmuller 

Welcome to C&Vdom, revcp.

Yes, there is always crossover and the reason is this. Almost all of us ride and play with C&V bikes for exactly the same reasons you mentioned. We ride them and we play with them. And the more we ride the more discerning we become, the more we begin to appreciate their differences.

I speak for myself here but I suspect many others would say the same things: I don't collect for collecting's sake. Oh, there are a few bikes I'd like to have for old time's sake but I won't go out of my way to find one. My meager collection came about almost by accident. Frames have a way of following me home. (Two were gifts, two cost me $10.) I like the challenge of building them, but more important, I like riding them. I could tell them apart riding them blindfolded, until I crashed of course. Each one has some of my handiwork, each has a part of me (if only skinned knuckles). If you hang around here long enough that might happen to you too.

16Victor

Back to basics...these features won't be found on high end bikes - at the Goodwill I use these to automatically pass on the bike:

Stem Shifters:


Swaged crank:



You want [strike]one-piece[/strike] cranks with the spider and arm as one piece, unless older as mentioned in an earlier reply:


Also, 5-pin (bolt) cranks are preferable to 3-pin.

Above pics courtesy velobase.com

Hard to find a pic but you'll want to steer clear of steel rims in favor of alloy (we don't do carbon rims in C&V). Steel rims always are chromed; alloys can have a mirror finish (check brake surfaces if you're not sure, alloys will dull but steel won't), or matte finish typically indicating anodizing.

Avoid: mild steel spokes, sometimes chromed, sometimes not. Look for flaking chrome, rust (especially at nipple ends) or dull gray color.


Find: stainless steel spokes, may be dull but quickly shine to a milky silver with an eraser. Very good SS spokes will have a stamp on the head:


Bad seatpost (unless [strike]mid '60's[/strike] correction, approximately mid-70's or older, because that's all they had):

above from mytenspeeds.com

OK Seatpost:


Great Seatpost:


For outstanding detail pics of a very high end bike, see https://www.raydobbins.com/ebay/bike-masi/bike-masi.htm

Good resource: mytenspeeds.com

jimmuller 

I would agree with 16V mostly but quibble on a few points. Some decent bikes (my '73 Gran Sport and a '72/'73 Le Champion I haven't started work on) have a straight seat post with steel clamp. So they were around later than the 60's. It isn't obvious what is different between the Laprade and those other three seat posts either. The Laprade is perfectly functional even if commonplace. Finally, the front wheel that came with the Team Champion I have almost finished has plated spokes, probably cadmium unfortunately, not environmentally desirable. (The rear wheel was rebuilt at one time.) And one more thing. The Sugino Maxy crank had spider arms swaged to the arms but still had removable charinrings. It wasn't real high-end but it was nice inexpensive 110BCD crank. I still use the one I put on the UO8 around 1980, IIRC.

eschlwc

1. my $5 sr laprade seat posts are much easier to adjust than my $50 campy posts.

2. can someone please define 3-piece crank and 1-piece? above, a regular cotterless crank that bolts to individual chainrings is called a one-piece crank. this is confusing knowing a cheap schwinn crank threads through the bb shell as the two arms aren't separable.

Shp4man

One piece crank:

zukahn1 

A one piece crank is a ashabula style style crank the whole crank and BB are one piece and thread through the BB shell. A 3 piece is by what most are refering to here as a nicer crank usually alloy that slides onto square taper BB and is bolted. A cotter pinned crank is steel and three pieces the BB is seperate and the arms attache by large pins that go through the crank arms and slide along flates channels on the bb spindles to secure the armes while rather outdated a lot of higher end bikes prior to the early 70's had these and most better bike made before the mid 60's.

eschlwc

so the above is probably not the best language to use in describing a cotterless crank arm attached to a spider that then bolts to individual chainrings.

Drillium Dude 

Hey, no apology needed - it's all good

I actually got rid of the first thread because of the wording I used in the title; this second-time-around I tried to be a little less harsh and see if we couldn't identify along the lines of not-so-good/good/better/best. We all know that's basically the way of the world, no matter what the product. There are some products at the one end of the spectrum that are, let's face it, total crap - and there are products at the extreme other end of the spectrum that are almost too over-the-top to be of any use (becomes unusable art, taken to the nth level).

My hope is to show newbies the really bad (so they can avoid them, or at least not pay through the nose for them) and the really good (so they can realize a real bargain if one comes along, among other good reasons) along with everything in between. They themselves can then decide what level speaks to them and just as importantly is within their current budget.

I've noted a couple "thanks - I didn't know that" comments already, and I'm really happy for those members. If this thread added to just one person's knowledge, it was worth it to me

DD

zukahn1 

Here are a couple more examples of lug work both look somewhat similar until close inspection. 1975 Raliagh grand Prix not so great.


Fairly Nice Nervax lugs from a 1964 Gitane hosteller.


You will notice the Nervex lugs are more intrecate with crisp clean lines and sharp points while the Ralieghs are less intecate with dull lines and slightly rough dull points and some visable rough file marks.

Drillium Dude 

Hopefully this post with pics/comments helps to illustrate the different types of cranks.

One-piece crank: left arm, spindle and right arm are all forged in one piece.



Swaged crank: left arm, spindle and right arm are separate pieces. In addition, the right arm and spider (three, five and even six arm part that bolts to the chainrings) are separate pieces, and the spider will sometimes actually be a part of the large chainring.

The first picture below shows a medium-quality setup with an alloy right arm swaged to a steel chainring (note the chainring also serves as the spider in this case). The second picture shows a high-quality setup, where the right arm is swaged to a separate, CNC-machined spider (made by Topline).

One:


Two:



Three-piece crank: left arm, spindle and right arm are separate pieces; the right arm forging includes the spider and is a single piece.

Left and right arms - note the spider and right arm are one forging:



Bottom bracket spindle (with cups/dust shield/sealed bearings):



And, no - I haven't forgotten those of you with TA Cyclotourists and the like

Most TAs use a design in which the chainring and spider are really one piece, similar to a swaged crank. The difference is that the right crank arm bolts to the "spider" portion of the chainring vice being pressed into place as in the case of a swaged crank. TAs still have a separate left arm, spindle and right arm, making them a three piece crank, too, but with the special attachment of right crank arm to the chainrings as spelled out above.

Here's a good look at a TA crankset - note how the arm is bolted to the spider portion of the chainring (not swaged):



Backside of the TA right arm showing the bolt circle - the bolts attach directly to the spider portion of the large chainring:



DD

kunsunoke 

Not my pics - they're Randy's. He's seen far more bikes than most people.

And this was not a ding on French or English bikes. There are so many good ones out there that there's really no point in exhibiting them - all one really needs to do is take a look at Hilary Stone's "For Sale" items for evidence.

I have a PX-10 myself, and though it was made at the onset of the boom era, the lugwork (Bocama) is beautiful.

SJX426 

In support of 6Victor and jimuller, I offer an example of a stock 1972 Motobecane Le Champion seatpost configuration. Just because a bike has centerpull brakes does not mean it is not quality. This bike was near the end of a transition periood of part designs and configurations, i.e. centerpulls to quality sidepulls, multiple post components to single post configuration, brake housing clamps to braze-on clamps, and in general bolt on parts to braze-on parts. So what? Well the Le Champion was the top of the line for Motobecane in 1973, it sold for around $315 new.

BTW: I still ride this saddle which was new on the bike. The post is AL. The clamp is a Brooks that is chrome plated.

iab

Nope.

In the examples I posted, the Sport derailleur is more rare than the Gran Sport yet less collectible. That is the exact case for the Universal Sport calipers and Universal 51 calipers. Rarity has nothing to do collectability.

Or don't you understand the meaning of context?

The Golden Boy 

I'd like to say a few things about turkey levers, stem shifters and kickstands.

There's almost a militancy against all these things- But they work.

Notice, on that bike posted above- it's been gone over throroughly. New bar tape, new levers, cross levers installed, tires look like Paselas- with dirt on them- that bike is being ridden. But they kept the stem shifters. The owner of that bike clearly cares for that bike, has the money to maintain the bike in an appropriate manner, seemingly rides the bike- and is apparently comfortable with stem shifters.

I seem to recall reading that when turkey levers were introduced, that they received some fancy pants bicycling magazine 'amazing safety award' or something to that effect. I think the point of the levers being used for slowing down, rather than ultimate stopping power is usually lost. When I rebuilt my High Sierra, I specifically sought out levers with turkey wings. Interestingly, I'm playing around with the idea of installing stem shifters on there.

People seem to hate kickstands. Wherever I ride and I see people having a good time riding bikes. Where they're stopped, their bikes are propped up on kickstands. When I ride with my wife, we take her bike off the car, drop the kickstand and I have to unload my bike and find a place to lean it. When I got my bike, it had had a kickstand on it for almost 30 years- one of the first things I did when I got the bike was take it off- because I knew I was "supposed to." Whenever I have to look around for a safe place to lean my bike, I wonder why I was supposed to take that thing off.

The Golden Boy 

You need to make up your mind.


Oh, you mean like disregarding that whole "newbs" thing in the title and original post and editing out what you don't care to acknowledge to suit yourself?

iab

i'll bet you don't see the irony of your post.

Good luck.

16Victor

I agree on both points and I edited my post to lend some clarity.